Control Areas and interconnecting stair

[hapyhour]

Can i have an interconnecting stair within a control area, that is open between just the two floors?

CBC and CFC simply say that control areas need to be separated by fire barriers(CBC707) and/or horizontal assemblies (CBC 711). There are no other requirements out of CBC 414 or CFC 5003 regarding vertical openings in control areas. CBC 712.9 does not list control areas as a restriction for two-story open stairways.

 

[RLGA]

If the stairway is within a single control area, then the floor opening will need to comply with Section 712. If the stairway connects two different control areas, then there must be complete separation, so the stair will need to be enclosed.

 

[cda]

Never mind

 

[hapyhour]

If the stairway is within a single control area, then the floor opening will need to comply with Section 712. If the stairway connects two different control areas, then there must be complete separation, so the stair will need to be enclosed.

The stairway will always connect two control areas, because you can no longer have a control area on more than one floor.
Can i have a control area on one side of the building and the other be uncontrolled?

 

[cda]

The stairway will always connect two control areas, because you can no longer have a control area on more than one floor.
Can i have a control area on one side of the building and the other be uncontrolled?

Code reference please and edition you are looking at:::

"""because you can no longer have a control area on more than one floor"""

Your question does pertain to chemical and or flammable storage??????????

 

[cda]

check it........

 

[RLGA]

The stairway will always connect two control areas, because you can no longer have a control area on more than one floor.

Huh? Of course you can have a control area on more than one story. See Table 414.2.2.

Can i have a control area on one side of the building and the other be uncontrolled?

As long as the "uncontrolled" area has no hazardous chemicals and is separated from any control area.

 

[Enri Code]

Can i have an interconnecting stair within a control area, that is open between just the two floors?

CBC and CFC simply say that control areas need to be separated by fire barriers(CBC707) and/or horizontal assemblies (CBC 711). There are no other requirements out of CBC 414 or CFC 5003 regarding vertical openings in control areas. CBC 712.9 does not list control areas as a restriction for two-story open stairways.

You can still separate the control areas - as needed - at each floor if you can enclose the stair on either or both floors with walls and a door... or fire shutters if you want to keep the stairway open.

In my opinion, I don't think you can cite omission of control areas by CBC 712.9 as a reason to remove fire barriers between control rooms as required by CBC 707. "Control areas need to be separated by fire barriers" seems to be a blanket statement and CBC 711 as an "AND/ OR" statement with regard to horizontal assemblies seems more situational.

In the case of two control rooms stacked on top of each other... it doesn't seem to fit into strictly in a situation where horizontal barriers fully apply and Chapter 7 needs to be looked at in totality.

 

[hapyhour]

To clarify, you can not have a control area be vertical in a building, being on floors 3 and 4.
We came to an agreement with the building department. one control area per floor, the open interconnecting stair will be allowed and the higher restriction of the 4th floor MAQ, 12.5%, will be applied to each floor.

 

[Enri Code]

To clarify, you can not have a control area be vertical in a building, being on floors 3 and 4.
We came to an agreement with the building department. one control area per floor, the open interconnecting stair will be allowed and the higher restriction of the 4th floor MAQ, 12.5%, will be applied to each floor.

Understood. Basically treating both floors as one in effect by adopting the requirements of what would be the floor with the higher restriction for both floors. Makes sense.

 

[cda]

To clarify, you can not have a control area be vertical in a building, being on floors 3 and 4.
We came to an agreement with the building department. one control area per floor, the open interconnecting stair will be allowed and the higher restriction of the 4th floor MAQ, 12.5%, will be applied to each floor.

Interesting solution

Not sure how they approved it.

I would not put my name on it.

 

[RLGA]

There is nothing in the IBC that precludes a control area from covering more than one story.

Imagine the control areas as if they were a kitchen container system:

Each container has a different size--some take up more floor area than others, while some may expand vertically through stories. However, unlike the kitchen containers, each container is limited to what IBC Tables 307.1(1) and 307.1(2) say they can hold regardless of the container's size. Also, each container must be separated from other containers with fire-resistant construction.

When looking at the number of containers within each story per Table 414.2.2, you include the containers that extend through multiple stories, even if all the hazardous materials within that container are located on another story.

The key element of the control area is to limit the quantity of hazardous materials within the control area ("container") and that each control area ("container") is physically separated from other control areas ("containers") within the same building using fire-resistant construction.

If a multistory building has hazardous chemicals within it, but the quantities do not exceed those listed in Tables 307.1(1) and (2), then effectively the entire building is a single control area and the chemicals can be moved from story to story provided the quantities never exceed the maximum thresholds.

 

[cda]

There is nothing in the IBC that precludes a control area from covering more than one story.

Imagine the control areas as if they were a kitchen container system:

Each container has a different size--some take up more floor area than others, while some may expand vertically through stories. However, unlike the kitchen containers, each container is limited to what IBC Tables 307.1(1) and 307.1(2) say they can hold regardless of the container's size. Also, each container must be separated from other containers with fire-resistant construction.

When looking at the number of containers within each story per Table 414.2.2, you include the containers that extend through multiple stories, even if all the hazardous materials within that container are located on another story.

The key element of the control area is to limit the quantity of hazardous materials within the control area ("container") and that each control area ("container") is physically separated from other control areas ("containers") within the same building using fire-resistant construction.

If a multistory building has hazardous chemicals within it, but the quantities do not exceed those listed in Tables 307.1(1) and (2), then effectively the entire building is a single control area and the chemicals can be moved from story to story provided the quantities never exceed the maximum thresholds.

Interesting concept,

Glad it has not been presented to
Me, would still be Scratching my head.

Maybe on paper it looks better, or when they bring the containers to
My office.


When the containers come in, I will take a picture and credit you.

 

[Enri Code]

There is nothing in the IBC that precludes a control area from covering more than one story.

Imagine the control areas as if they were a kitchen container system:

Each container has a different size--some take up more floor area than others, while some may expand vertically through stories. However, unlike the kitchen containers, each container is limited to what IBC Tables 307.1(1) and 307.1(2) say they can hold regardless of the container's size. Also, each container must be separated from other containers with fire-resistant construction.

When looking at the number of containers within each story per Table 414.2.2, you include the containers that extend through multiple stories, even if all the hazardous materials within that container are located on another story.

The key element of the control area is to limit the quantity of hazardous materials within the control area ("container") and that each control area ("container") is physically separated from other control areas ("containers") within the same building using fire-resistant construction.

If a multistory building has hazardous chemicals within it, but the quantities do not exceed those listed in Tables 307.1(1) and (2), then effectively the entire building is a single control area and the chemicals can be moved from story to story provided the quantities never exceed the maximum thresholds.

Good explanation and visuals. Thank you.

 

[harmonics]

There is nothing in the IBC that precludes a control area from covering more than one story.

Imagine the control areas as if they were a kitchen container system:

Each container has a different size--some take up more floor area than others, while some may expand vertically through stories. However, unlike the kitchen containers, each container is limited to what IBC Tables 307.1(1) and 307.1(2) say they can hold regardless of the container's size. Also, each container must be separated from other containers with fire-resistant construction.

When looking at the number of containers within each story per Table 414.2.2, you include the containers that extend through multiple stories, even if all the hazardous materials within that container are located on another story.

The key element of the control area is to limit the quantity of hazardous materials within the control area ("container") and that each control area ("container") is physically separated from other control areas ("containers") within the same building using fire-resistant construction.

If a multistory building has hazardous chemicals within it, but the quantities do not exceed those listed in Tables 307.1(1) and (2), then effectively the entire building is a single control area and the chemicals can be moved from story to story provided the quantities never exceed the maximum thresholds.

If you have a control area that spans floors one and two. do you limit the MAQ to 75% of the MAQ because part of it is on the second floor?

 

[RLGA]

If you have a control area that spans floors one and two. do you limit the MAQ to 75% of the MAQ because part of it is on the second floor?

Good question and the code does not directly address that particular situation. I would presume it would be based on a very simple application of what is allowed in each story. For example, assume a particular material is allowed 100 lbs. within a control area, and the control area spans the first and second stories.

If the material were placed only on the first story, the full 100 lbs. is permitted. If the material were placed only on the second story, only 75 lbs. would be permitted. Thus, you can store up to 75 lbs. on the second story, but since the control area is limited to 100 lbs., you can store the remainder (25 lbs.) on the first story.

You can distribute the quantity in any way desired as long as the quantity on the second story does not exceed 75 lbs., and the total quantity within the control area does not exceed 100 lbs.

 

[fungineer]

Good question and the code does not directly address that particular situation. I would presume it would be based on a very simple application of what is allowed in each story. For example, assume a particular material is allowed 100 lbs. within a control area, and the control area spans the first and second stories.

If the material were placed only on the first story, the full 100 lbs. is permitted. If the material were placed only on the second story, only 75 lbs. would be permitted. Thus, you can store up to 75 lbs. on the second story, but since the control area is limited to 100 lbs., you can store the remainder (25 lbs.) on the first story.

You can distribute the quantity in any way desired as long as the quantity on the second story does not exceed 75 lbs., and the total quantity within the control area does not exceed 100 lbs.

The IFC commentary refers to IFC Interpretation No. 51-07 ( https://www3.iccsafe.org/cs/committeeArea/pdf_file/FI_06_51_07.pdf) and 52-07 (https://www3.iccsafe.org/cs/committeeArea/pdf_file/BU_06_57_07.pdf). The summary of these is esentially this: If you have multistory building with a single control area (or multistory control area), you may have up to 100% of the MAQ within the control area, distributed as you wish, but any individual floor within that control area cannot exceed the % limits of table 5003.8.3.2.

 

[fungineer]

I myself do have an interpretation question, as the IFC table listed above references "Floor Level" rather than "Story". If I'm storying Haz. Chemicals within a control area of a mezzanine of the 1st floor, can I still treat that as "Floor Level 1" and thus be allowed up to 100% of the MAQ?

Likewise, if I'm allowed to have an enclosed mezzanine (Per IBC Chapter 5), is there anything which would prevent me from having the mezzanine be a separate control area than the space which "it opens up to"?

 

[RLGA]

The IFC commentary refers to IFC Interpretation No. 51-07 ( https://www3.iccsafe.org/cs/committeeArea/pdf_file/FI_06_51_07.pdf) and 52-07 (https://www3.iccsafe.org/cs/committeeArea/pdf_file/BU_06_57_07.pdf). The summary of these is esentially this: If you have multistory building with a single control area (or multistory control area), you may have up to 100% of the MAQ within the control area, distributed as you wish, but any individual floor within that control area cannot exceed the % limits of table 5003.8.3.2.

Thanks. I guess my interpretation was spot on.