• Welcome to the new and improved Building Code Forum. We appreciate you being here and hope that you are getting the information that you need concerning all codes of the building trades. This is a free forum to the public due to the generosity of the Sawhorses, Corporate Supporters and Supporters who have upgraded their accounts. If you would like to have improved access to the forum please upgrade to Sawhorse by first logging in then clicking here: Upgrades

defining the 'work area'

Status
Not open for further replies.
OK here's a further example -

permit issued for kit and bath renovation, with ext. siding removal and replacement.

upon inspection find -

wall between kitchen and dining room removed

wall between dining room and living room removed

wall between 2 bedroom removed and reframed with closets.

2 bathrooms reframed

new closet framed for HVAC unit

LVLs installed in center bearing wall

25 ceiling cans installed throughout unit (minimum hole size 12x18)

new heating system installed with new ductwork run

what's the call?
 
So the example of the OP would not be in compliance, so sprinklers would be required...right?
Not so fast. Chapter 3 is the same as Chapter 34 in the IBC so you probably have more experiance with it than you think.

If the building complies with the fire code then no sprinklers are required

IFC 2009

102.1 Construction and design provisions.

The construction and design provisions of this code shall apply to:

1. Structures, facilities and conditions arising after the adoption of this code.

2. Existing structures, facilities and conditions not legally in existence at the time of adoption of this code. For the sake of discussion it was legal at the time the I-Codes where adopted

3. Existing structures, facilities and conditions when required in Chapter 46. Does chapter 46 requires sprinklers in an existing building? Only for 2 cases

4603.4 Sprinkler systems.

An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided in existing buildings in accordance with Sections 4603.4.1 and 4603.4.2

4603.4.1 Pyroxylin plastics.

4603.4.2 Group I-2.

4. Existing structures, facilities and conditions which, in the opinion of the fire code official , constitute a distinct hazard to life or property. The FCO better be able to document the distinct hazard. Not meeting todays code requirements is not a distinct hazard by itself.

2009 IFC

903.2 Where required.

Approved automatic sprinkler systems in new buildings and structures shall be provided in the locations described in Sections 903.2.1 through 903.2.12.

So 903.2 does not apply to an alteration under IEBC Chapter 3. Even under the work area method a sprinkler system is not required by all level 2 alterations. You have to meet all the conditions of Section 704.2.2 and most small buildings don't. The building described in the OP does not meet the conditions to require sprinklers.

Chapter 46 Construction Requirements for Existing Buildings. Chapter 46 is also a new chapter in the 2009 International Fire Code . This chapter applies to existing buildings constructed prior to the adoption of this code and intends to provide a minimum degree of fire and life safety to persons occupying existing buildings by providing for alterations to such buildings that do not comply with the minimum requirements of the International Building Code . While this chapter is new, its content existed previously in the IFC but in a random manner that was neither efficient nor user-friendly. In the 2007/2008 code development cycle, code change F294-07/08 was approved that consolidated the retroactive elements of IFC/2006 Sections 607, 701, 704, 903, 905, 907 and 2506 and all of Section 1027 into a single chapter for easier and more efficient reference and application to existing buildings. As with other chapters of the International Fire Code , Section 4602 contains definitions applicable to the chapter contents.
 
we're new to the IFC, so here's an observation -

4603 requires existing buildings to comply with not less than the minumum provisions specified in Table 4603.1...

Table 4603.1 requires sprinklers in A, F, H-2, H-3, I-2, and M use groups.

which is significantly more than the sprinkler requiremnt put forth in the text of the code (4603.4).
 
Ok, I'm listening.

I didn't catch the "new building" part. Unfortunately I only have access to IFC 2003, so I can't weigh in on chapter 46.

Thank you. This will give me something chew on for awhile.
 
Mr Softy said:
35% counting gross square footage of rooms where work is being performed.one method of calculation put forth is net square footage of reconfigured space only. so if a wall is being removed, does reconfigured space = 5.5" X length of wall? and that's it.
The only reason that you have an issue with that approach is because you are pushing an agenda rather than enforcing the building code. Holding the permit hostage is how you forward your agenda and your rationale is that the public is your enemy.
 
4603 requires existing buildings to comply with not less than the minumum provisions specified in Table 4603.1... Correct

Table 4603.1 requires sprinklers in A, F, H-2, H-3, I-2, and M use groups. Incorrect The Table sends you to 4603.4 period and nowhere else.

which is significantly more than the sprinkler requiremnt put forth in the text of the code (4603.4). How?

4603.4 Sprinkler systems.

An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided in existing buildings in accordance with Sections 4603.4.1 and 4603.4.2.

4603.4.1 Pyroxylin plastics.

An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided throughout existing buildings where cellulose nitrate film or pyroxylin plastics are manufactured, stored or handled in quantities exceeding 100 pounds (45 kg). Vaults located within buildings for the storage of raw pyroxylin shall be protected with an approved automatic sprinkler system capable of discharging 1.66 gallons per minute per square foot (68 L/min/m2) over the area of the vault. This could be your A or M occupancies if they have more than 100 pounds within the theater (A) or store (M) Table 4603.1 does not automatically require sprinklers in all A or M occupancies.

4603.4.2 Group I-2.

An automatic sprinkler system shall be provided throughout existing Group I-2 fire areas . The sprinkler system shall be provided throughout the floor where the Group I-2 occupancy is located, and in all floors between the Group I-2 occupancy and the level of exit discharge .
 
I'm not sure what the issue here is. Getting a report on our lovely dog, Brudgers. Yes, I know the dog has a brashness about himself. Brudgers, be a good boy and not be so brash. I know you have a certain personality that rubs off as harsh and somewhat brash and difficult to get along with. Lets just behave and get along guys.

Otherwise, if it derails to personal attacks, I'll or one of the mods may lock the thread if necessary. So far, I don't see it has reached that state at the moment. Lets keep it at that.

MODERATOR mode off.

Lets have fun.
 
rooster said:
... An owner could simply be replacing ceiling tiles 100% and this would kick it into a level 3 because you are considering ALL the work to be the work area, ...
Ceiling tile is a finish.

No permit required.

105.2, 2006 IEBC.
 
rooster said:
I hope you didn't take my remarks as condescending because they were not meant to be. I was only voicing my frustration
Welcome to the ICC :)

The topic was dragged all around (IO contributed to the dragging and I got off on a tangent.

Yes, the work area is the reconfigured space.

Yes, the work area shall meet the requirements for level 2 (or level 3 if the area is >50%)

I think part of the point trying to be made is if you have level 1 work going on in the level 2 work area, the level 1 alteration no longer exists, it is level 2 within the work area.

The next great debate will be defining the reconfigured space, but I think that is another thread.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
alora said:
Ceiling tile is a finish.No permit required.

105.2, 2006 IEBC.
Yeah, I saw that section after I posted that. Substitute a level 1 alteration of your choosing.
 
TimNY said:
Welcome to the ICC :) The topic was dragged all around (IO contributed to the dragging and I got off on a tangent.

Yes, the work area is the reconfigured space.

Yes, the work area shall meet the requirements for level 2 (or level 3 if the area is >50%)

I think part of the point trying to be made is if you have level 1 work going on in the level 2 work area, the level 1 alteration no longer exists, it is level 2 within the work area.

The next great debate will be defining the reconfigured space, but I think that is another thread.
Yeah, maybe we'll give the topic a rest for a week or two...

Somehow this all seems to be more complicated than it should be...I like the prescriptive method pointed out by MT. I was just under the impression that the building needed to be in compliance as if it were a new building...forgive me, I just went through a process concerning uncertified building built 100 years ago that by state law had to comply with today's code...so I was in that frame of mind.

One thing is for certain...one can't spend too much time with the code book...or books...sigh.
 
I have been reading through this thread tonight and I absolutely love the discussion. The opinions vary and this is a very important discussion. I would ask that everything be kept in perspective and we must all realize that some posters are more direct and brash than others and that some people have thinner skin that others. Nothing that I have read so far is completely out of control, nor am I reading anything as being personal. There are observations that may or may not be correct, there may be some opinions that may be interpreted as being personal but I am not seeing it and we all may have to agree to disagree.

This is one of the best threads to ever be started because it really hits home for many of us that struggle with existing buildings and when certain "expensive" items are triggered to be installed. Luckily for me, there is an appeals board to overrule me if the applicant feels strongly enough to take it there.

We all have opinions based on our interpretation of issues like this and we are all coming from different angles based on our job title. I think we all want to do the right thing when it comes right down to it.

Please, please continue this discussion with less speculation, opinions on the past that are not relevant to the written code as we know it.

I have learned to sit back and not take everything personally and that some just don't know how to play nice or at least nice enough for the person they are playing with.

This is a great example of why I don't allow editing after a specific amount of time. We don't throw out the whole bushel when we find one bad apple.
 
"This is one of the best threads to ever be started"

An ice cream cone named Mr. Softy belts one out of the park on his first at bat. If you see an Oscar Mayer, expect big things.
 
Sure beats 'attic stairs'! (@ Mr. S, inside joke about another thread that took on a life of it's own) I skipped over pages 5 through the end, so forgive me for going back to the OP...

WORK AREA. That portion or portions of a building consisting of all reconfigured spaces (that would be where the actual spaces are reconfigured) as indicated on the construction documents (this is the one I think everyone is missing. This should be noted by the DP on the plans). Work area excludes other portions of the building where incidental work entailed by the intended work must be performed and portions of the building where work not initially intended by the owner is specifically required by this code.

The window replacements, etc are not 'reconfigured spaces', IMHO.

The DPR is required to indicate the work area on the construction documents. (401.2 Work area. The work area, as defined in Chapter 2, shall be identified on the construction documents.)

I also believe you've got the commentary a bit off. It was saying that level two work must meet the requirements of both chapters, not that it should make the whole project the work area.

Despite his gruff manner, brudgers makes a valid point (or two). That the Code doesn't specifically provide for nor prohibit 'combining' all work into the scope of level two is awkward, but your local or state law may contain some language that could prove useful. Lacking that, have the DP do HIS job and indicate the work area on the documents. Then the Code Official can do HIS job and review it for compliance.

By the way Mr. S... Welcome to the board!
 
JBI said:
Sure beats 'attic stairs'! (@ Mr. S, inside joke about another thread that took on a life of it's own) I skipped over pages 5 through the end, so forgive me for going back to the OP... WORK AREA. That portion or portions of a building consisting of all reconfigured spaces (that would be where the actual spaces are reconfigured) as indicated on the construction documents (this is the one I think everyone is missing. This should be noted by the DP on the plans). Work area excludes other portions of the building where incidental work entailed by the intended work must be performed and portions of the building where work not initially intended by the owner is specifically required by this code.

The window replacements, etc are not 'reconfigured spaces', IMHO.

The DPR is required to indicate the work area on the construction documents. (401.2 Work area. The work area, as defined in Chapter 2, shall be identified on the construction documents.)

I also believe you've got the commentary a bit off. It was saying that level two work must meet the requirements of both chapters, not that it should make the whole project the work area.

Despite his gruff manner, brudgers makes a valid point (or two). That the Code doesn't specifically provide for nor prohibit 'combining' all work into the scope of level two is awkward, but your local or state law may contain some language that could prove useful. Lacking that, have the DP do HIS job and indicate the work area on the documents. Then the Code Official can do HIS job and review it for compliance.

By the way Mr. S... Welcome to the board!
This is a good summary of what I was trying to get across in 7 pages...where were you last week?

After looking at the definition of Work Area, I began to think of the project as having two parallel lines...two lines that never have to criss-cross.

One line is the levels of alteration. In this line you can have level 1 throughout and a level 2 happening in one space. Yes, the level 2 has to comply with chapter 6&7, but I don't believe the level 1 necessarily has to become a level 2. Nowhere does it say this, except for that one commentary.

And the second line is that of the work area that is marked on the drawings. This line has no need to identify the level of the alteration...only the area. Now, of course these spaces will be a level 2 just because by definition a level 2 is the reconfig of space. But, this doesn't really matter. This line has to do with area of reconfig. space and area alone. Not the level of the alteration.

Now I never have one little level 2 tripping a predominately level 1 alteration into a level 3 or into sprinklers. Not that I'm trying to skirt anything...I'm just trying to avoid exploding project scopes that make the client not do anything, therefore making the building even less safe.

This seems reasonable to me and it's the way I deal with my CDs now. I'll just note that there are level 1 alterations throughout...then I'll note level 2 alterations

(reconfig. spaces) marked on Work Area Plan. This makes it clear that there is work happening throughout the building, but it also makes clear that space reconfiguration is only happening where I note it. If my marked work area hits 50%...then it's off to level 3...but only for the reconfig. spaces as the level 3 scope says.

Now if the reviewer questions what I've marked as the limits of the reconfiguration of space, then we can have that discussion. But the alteration level can be left out of it.

I'll be submitting these drawings soon...I'll let you know how it goes.

I'm glad this discussion happened. Every time this would come up in a project questions would come up exactly like Mr. Softy's origianl post. I feel much more comfortable dealing with it in this way. It seems less muddy. Whether it's right or wrong, I guess we'll find out.

And I'm now also more aware of Chapter 3 which mt pointed out. But even then, it seems that the work area option shouldn't be that mysterious.
 
JBI, thanks for chiming in - the more viewpoints, the better.

we absolutely insist the work area be specifically identified on the construction drawings.

rooster - i follow you logic about work area and levels not intersecting.

but.

with a limited interpretation and measurement of work area, a project may never hit any square footage triggers. despite however much work is being performed. so why are those triggers there?

here's another question to kick around re: reconfigured space -

where would one draw the line when measuring reconfigured space? the strict area of the walls being changed? or the area of the rooms where the reconfiguration is taking place?

on small stuff like moving a window or a door, i can see the work area being very limited. but where would you consider the work area if a wall is coming down between rooms? or if numerous walls are to be moved?

i am curious as to other views on this.

here's the definition (again) - That portion or portions of a building consisting of all reconfigured spaces .

if there is a 1000 sq ft portion of a building that is reconfigured, is the work area that 1000 sq ft? sure looks like it.
 
Mr Softy said:
JBI, thanks for chiming in - the more viewpoints, the better.we absolutely insist the work area be specifically identified on the construction drawings.

rooster - i follow you logic about work area and levels not intersecting.

but.

with a limited interpretation and measurement of work area, a project may never hit any square footage triggers. despite however much work is being performed. so why are those triggers there? I'm not trying to limit my work area...I'm only marking it like the code tells me to. And the triggers are there for when the work area does hit the given threshold. From the sounds of it, you think this threshold has been met in the project you're now working with. Can you give us your code trail that makes you believe this?

here's another question to kick around re: reconfigured space -

where would one draw the line when measuring reconfigured space? the strict area of the walls being changed? or the area of the rooms where the reconfiguration is taking place?

on small stuff like moving a window or a door, i can see the work area being very limited. but where would you consider the work area if a wall is coming down between rooms? or if numerous walls are to be moved?

i am curious as to other views on this.

here's the definition (again) - That portion or portions of a building consisting of all reconfigured spaces .

if there is a 1000 sq ft portion of a building that is reconfigured, is the work area that 1000 sq ft? sure looks like it.
We've talked a lot about the intent of the IEBC...here it is:

101.3 Intent. The intent of this code is to provide flexibility to

permit the use of alternative approaches to achieve compliance

with minimum requirements to safeguard the public health,

safety and welfare insofar as they are affected by the repair,

alteration, change of occupancy, addition and relocation of

existing buildings.

Like it or not, we are talking about "minimum requirements."
 
Mr Softy said:
JBI, thanks for chiming in - the more viewpoints, the better.we absolutely insist the work area be specifically identified on the construction drawings.

rooster - i follow you logic about work area and levels not intersecting.

but.

with a limited interpretation and measurement of work area, a project may never hit any square footage triggers. despite however much work is being performed. so why are those triggers there?

here's another question to kick around re: reconfigured space -

where would one draw the line when measuring reconfigured space? the strict area of the walls being changed? or the area of the rooms where the reconfiguration is taking place? This is where I think this whole thing can get muddy...see below.

on small stuff like moving a window or a door, i can see the work area being very limited. but where would you consider the work area if a wall is coming down between rooms? or if numerous walls are to be moved?

i am curious as to other views on this.

here's the definition (again) - That portion or portions of a building consisting of all reconfigured spaces .

if there is a 1000 sq ft portion of a building that is reconfigured, is the work area that 1000 sq ft? sure looks like it.
When I hear the phrase "reconfiguration of space" I think of the space...not the object, therefore I would think the affected space would be the work area. I hate to say it, but it almost seems like some flexibility is in order.

Let's use your window example, but let's make it simpler. Let's say it's just getting eliminated...not moved.

Now let's say you have 2 cases: a sleeping room & a one room warehouse.

If we look at the sleeping room, the elimination of a window is a very big deal, and it affects the life-safety of the entire space of the sleeping room (no matter where the occupant is)...therefore I would have to say that the entire sleeping room would be the work area.

Now on the other hand, if we look at the elimination of a window in a one room warehouse, do we consider the whole warehouse the work area? To me, that doesn't seem reasonable, mainly because it most likely doesn't affect the life-safety of the entire space like it does the sleeping room. Actually, I've done projects where we put a small office in a large warehouse (which by defualt eliminates a wndw to the warehouse), and we only call out the addition of the office as the work area. To call out the rest of the warehouse as the work area, would have looked kind of silly...unless it affected the life-safety of the warehouse space.

So there it...what can I say....I don't have an answer except that we all might have to just take it all of this with a grain of salt.

On the note of flexibility...here is an exception to using the compliance methods. This is the exception to 105.1:

Exception: Subject to the approval of the code official, alterations

complying with the laws in existence at the time the

building or the affected portion of the buildingwas built shall

be considered in compliance with the provisions of this code

unless the building is undergoing more than a limited structural

alteration as defined in Section 807.4.3. New structural

members added as part of the alteration shall complywith the

International Building Code. Alterations of existing buildings

in flood hazard areas shall complywith Section 601.3.

To me, it's all coming down to "are we any worse off?"
 
Last edited by a moderator:
To me, it's all coming down to "are we any worse off?"
Exactly. Same as removing a non-structural wall between the kitchen and living room in an apartment. Did it really re-configure the uses within the space. No, the kitchen and living room have the same square footage it just became an open floor plan. Did it negatively affect anything? No, so it meets 101.3
 
Mr Softy said:
but.

with a limited interpretation and measurement of work area, a project may never hit any square footage triggers. despite however much work is being performed. so why are those triggers there?
Just to break your heart.

Seriously, every one of your posts falls into the same pattern.

"I know what the code says - but..."

We can only hope that one day fairness and justice replace your personal agenda and willingness to break the law.
 
rooster said:
To me, it's all coming down to "are we any worse off?"
Those whose personal agenda requires making the public dance to their whims, feel they are.
 
here are two questions -

Project - there are two adjacent 10x10 rooms. the wall between the two is being moved 2 feet, to create an 8x10 room and a 12x10 room.

does the project qualify as Level 2? Yes or No

Is the work area -

a 200 Sq ft, the combined area of the two reconfigured spaces.

b. 20 sq ft. the area the wall was moved

c. 5 sq ft the area of the wall (6"x 10')
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top