Designated aisle seats per California Accessibility

[Codegeek]

We have a project which falls under the provisions of 1104B.3 of the CBC for accessibility. The jurisdiction is indicating that the designated aisle seats must be on the accessible route. However, the language in 1104B.3.9 states the following: The designated aisle seats shall be those located closest to accessible routes. To me that says they do not have to be on the accessible route as long as they are close. Our issue is in meeting the slope requirements for an accessible route as we have more than five percent slope.

Does anyone have any experience in this area or some insight they could pass my direction?

Thanks.

 

[globe trekker]

Codegeek,

No insight or experience, but opinion only! IMO, I would interpret "closest" to mean the shortest

distance to the Accessible Route (aisle,) and not nearby, ..in the vicinity of.

.

 

[Codegeek]

No insight or experience, but opinion only! IMO, I would interpret "closest" to mean the shortest

distance to the Accessible Route (aisle,) and not nearby, ..in the vicinity of.

.

Agree, which is why I'm questioning the jurisdiction's stance that it has to be ON the accessible route. The seats are on the aisles; it's just that the slope is greater than 5 percent. One theater has a slope of 6 percent, one is at 8 percent and one is at 11 percent.

 

[Builder Bob]

I think the seating has to be on the accessible aisle...... reasoning, you don't make people travel down an accessible route then interrupt the path of travel with non-accessible features. Item # 3 seems to nail it on the head.

ADA website

III-4.4600 Seating in assembly areas. Public accommodations are required to remove barriers to physical access in assembly areas such as theaters, lecture halls, and conference rooms with fixed seating.

If it is readily achievable to do so, public accommodations that operate places of assembly must locate seating for individuals who use wheelchairs so that it --

1) Is dispersed throughout the seating area;

2) Provides lines of sight and choices of admission prices comparable to those offered to the general public;

3) Adjoins an accessible route for emergency egress; and

4) Permits people who use wheelchairs to sit with their friends or family.

If it is not readily achievable for auditoriums or theaters to remove seats to allow individuals who use wheelchairs to sit next to accompanying family members or friends, the public accommodation may meet its obligation by providing portable chairs or other means to allow the accompanying individuals to sit with the persons who use wheelchairs. Portable chairs or other means must be provided only when it is readily achievable to do so.

How many seating locations for persons who use wheelchairs must be provided? Under the general principles applicable to barrier removal in existing facilities, a public accommodation is never required to provide greater access than it would be required to provide under the alterations provisions of the ADAAG.

Must the seating locations be dispersed? The ADA accessibility standard for alterations requires wheelchair seating to be dispersed (i.e. , provided in more than one location) only in assembly areas with fixed seating for more than 300 people. Because the requirements for making existing facilities accessible never exceed the ADAAG standard for alterations, public accommodations engaged in barrier removal are not required to disperse wheelchair seating in assembly areas with 300 or fewer seats, or in any case where it is technically infeasible.

Must a public accommodation permit a person who uses a wheelchair to leave his or her wheelchair and view the performance or program from a stationary seat? Yes. And in order to facilitate seating of wheelchair users who wish to transfer to existing seating when fixed seating is provided, a public accommodation must provide, to the extent readily achievable, a reasonable number of seats with removable aisle-side armrests. Many persons who use wheelchairs are able to transfer to fixed seating with this relatively minor modification. This solution avoids the potential safety hazard created by the use of portable chairs, and it also fosters integration. In situations when a person who uses a wheelchair transfers to existing seating, the public accommodation may provide assistance in handling the wheelchair of the patron with the disability.

May a public accommodation charge a wheelchair user a higher fee to compensate for the extra space required to accommodate a wheelchair or for storing or retrieving a wheelchair? No. People with disabilities may not be subjected to additional charges related to their use of a wheelchair. In fact, to the extent readily achievable, wheelchair seating should provide a choice of admission prices and lines of sight comparable to those for members of the general public.

 

[Codegeek]

I think the seating has to be on the accessible aisle...... reasoning, you don't make people travel down an accessible route then interrupt the path of travel with non-accessible features. Item # 3 seems to nail it on the head.ADA website

III-4.4600 Seating in assembly areas. Public accommodations are required to remove barriers to physical access in assembly areas such as theaters, lecture halls, and conference rooms with fixed seating.

If it is readily achievable to do so, public accommodations that operate places of assembly must locate seating for individuals who use wheelchairs so that it --

1) Is dispersed throughout the seating area;

2) Provides lines of sight and choices of admission prices comparable to those offered to the general public;

3) Adjoins an accessible route for emergency egress; and

4) Permits people who use wheelchairs to sit with their friends or family.

If it is not readily achievable for auditoriums or theaters to remove seats to allow individuals who use wheelchairs to sit next to accompanying family members or friends, the public accommodation may meet its obligation by providing portable chairs or other means to allow the accompanying individuals to sit with the persons who use wheelchairs. Portable chairs or other means must be provided only when it is readily achievable to do so.

How many seating locations for persons who use wheelchairs must be provided? Under the general principles applicable to barrier removal in existing facilities, a public accommodation is never required to provide greater access than it would be required to provide under the alterations provisions of the ADAAG.

Must the seating locations be dispersed? The ADA accessibility standard for alterations requires wheelchair seating to be dispersed (i.e. , provided in more than one location) only in assembly areas with fixed seating for more than 300 people. Because the requirements for making existing facilities accessible never exceed the ADAAG standard for alterations, public accommodations engaged in barrier removal are not required to disperse wheelchair seating in assembly areas with 300 or fewer seats, or in any case where it is technically infeasible.

Must a public accommodation permit a person who uses a wheelchair to leave his or her wheelchair and view the performance or program from a stationary seat? Yes. And in order to facilitate seating of wheelchair users who wish to transfer to existing seating when fixed seating is provided, a public accommodation must provide, to the extent readily achievable, a reasonable number of seats with removable aisle-side armrests. Many persons who use wheelchairs are able to transfer to fixed seating with this relatively minor modification. This solution avoids the potential safety hazard created by the use of portable chairs, and it also fosters integration. In situations when a person who uses a wheelchair transfers to existing seating, the public accommodation may provide assistance in handling the wheelchair of the patron with the disability.

May a public accommodation charge a wheelchair user a higher fee to compensate for the extra space required to accommodate a wheelchair or for storing or retrieving a wheelchair? No. People with disabilities may not be subjected to additional charges related to their use of a wheelchair. In fact, to the extent readily achievable, wheelchair seating should provide a choice of admission prices and lines of sight comparable to those for members of the general public.

I understand this for wheelchair accessibility. These seats are not for folks in wheelchairs.

 

[Codegeek]

I think the seating has to be on the accessible aisle...... reasoning, you don't make people travel down an accessible route then interrupt the path of travel with non-accessible features. Item # 3 seems to nail it on the head.ADA website

III-4.4600 Seating in assembly areas. Public accommodations are required to remove barriers to physical access in assembly areas such as theaters, lecture halls, and conference rooms with fixed seating.

If it is readily achievable to do so, public accommodations that operate places of assembly must locate seating for individuals who use wheelchairs so that it --

1) Is dispersed throughout the seating area;

2) Provides lines of sight and choices of admission prices comparable to those offered to the general public;

3) Adjoins an accessible route for emergency egress; and

4) Permits people who use wheelchairs to sit with their friends or family.

If it is not readily achievable for auditoriums or theaters to remove seats to allow individuals who use wheelchairs to sit next to accompanying family members or friends, the public accommodation may meet its obligation by providing portable chairs or other means to allow the accompanying individuals to sit with the persons who use wheelchairs. Portable chairs or other means must be provided only when it is readily achievable to do so.

How many seating locations for persons who use wheelchairs must be provided? Under the general principles applicable to barrier removal in existing facilities, a public accommodation is never required to provide greater access than it would be required to provide under the alterations provisions of the ADAAG.

Must the seating locations be dispersed? The ADA accessibility standard for alterations requires wheelchair seating to be dispersed (i.e. , provided in more than one location) only in assembly areas with fixed seating for more than 300 people. Because the requirements for making existing facilities accessible never exceed the ADAAG standard for alterations, public accommodations engaged in barrier removal are not required to disperse wheelchair seating in assembly areas with 300 or fewer seats, or in any case where it is technically infeasible.

Must a public accommodation permit a person who uses a wheelchair to leave his or her wheelchair and view the performance or program from a stationary seat? Yes. And in order to facilitate seating of wheelchair users who wish to transfer to existing seating when fixed seating is provided, a public accommodation must provide, to the extent readily achievable, a reasonable number of seats with removable aisle-side armrests. Many persons who use wheelchairs are able to transfer to fixed seating with this relatively minor modification. This solution avoids the potential safety hazard created by the use of portable chairs, and it also fosters integration. In situations when a person who uses a wheelchair transfers to existing seating, the public accommodation may provide assistance in handling the wheelchair of the patron with the disability.

May a public accommodation charge a wheelchair user a higher fee to compensate for the extra space required to accommodate a wheelchair or for storing or retrieving a wheelchair? No. People with disabilities may not be subjected to additional charges related to their use of a wheelchair. In fact, to the extent readily achievable, wheelchair seating should provide a choice of admission prices and lines of sight comparable to those for members of the general public.

I understand this for wheelchair accessibility.

Here is the language with the entire Section:

1104B.3.9 Designated aisle seats. In addition to the wheelchair spaces required, 5 percent, but not less than one, of all fixed seats, shall be designated aisle seats with no armrests on the aisle side, or with removable or folding armrests on the aisle side. The designated aisle seats shall be those located closest to accessible routes. Each such seat shall be identified by a sign or marker with the International Symbol of Accessibility (see Figure 11B-6). Signage notifying patrons of the availability of such seats shall be posted at the ticket office. Signs and markers shall comply with Section 1117B.5.1 Items 2 and 3, as applicable.

These seats are not for folks in wheelchairs.

 

[Builder Bob]

(4) Stadium-style movie theaters shall locate wheelchair spaces and companion seats on a riser or cross-aisle in the stadium section that satisfies at least one of the following criteria—

(i) It is located within the rear 60% of the seats provided in an auditorium; or

(ii) It is located within the area of an auditorium in which the vertical viewing angles (as measured to the top of the screen) are from the 40th to the 100th percentile of vertical viewing angles for all seats as ranked from the seats in the first row (1st percentile) to seats in the back row (100th percentile

 

[Codegeek]

(4) Stadium-style movie theaters shall locate wheelchair spaces and companion seats on a riser or cross-aisle in the stadium section that satisfies at least one of the following criteria—(i) It is located within the rear 60% of the seats provided in an auditorium; or

(ii) It is located within the area of an auditorium in which the vertical viewing angles (as measured to the top of the screen) are from the 40th to the 100th percentile of vertical viewing angles for all seats as ranked from the seats in the first row (1st percentile) to seats in the back row (100th percentile

I understand all of the ADA requirements. I'm asking specifically for California as they do not follow ADA and have their own provisions.

 

[Builder Bob]

Chapter 8 - Special Rooms and Spaces

ICC Stance....

Now that I am educated about the pertinent question, I will offer my humble opinion.... The designated aisle seat may not have to be directly on the accessible route- however, I don't think the intent is to place it in the middle of a row seats. The seats are required to have movable arms to facilitate a person transferring into the designated seat. I think they stated it had to be close for the following reason, they (the code developers) did not want to make it so the designated aisle seat could not be located next to an accessible viewing area.. this would be an indention of the normal aisle, thus the statement closest to the accessible route.

 

[Codegeek]

Chapter 8 - Special Rooms and SpacesICC Stance....

Now that I am educated about the pertinent question, I will offer my humble opinion.... The designated aisle seat may not have to be directly on the accessible route- however, I don't think the intent is to place it in the middle of a row seats. The seats are required to have movable arms to facilitate a person transferring into the designated seat. I think they stated it had to be close for the following reason, they (the code developers) did not want to make it so the designated aisle seat could not be located next to an accessible viewing area.. this would be an indention of the normal aisle, thus the statement closest to the accessible route.

I appreciate all of the ADA and ICC information Bob. Believe me, I totally understand ADA and the ICC stance for accessibilty. As I've gotten older, now I have parents who have difficulties in maneuvering, so I'm constantly watching for issues which can create potential problems every where I go.

My problem lies in the interpretation of a code section by a jurisdiction that is requiring designated aisle seats on an accessible route when the code language does not require them on an accessible route, but rather close to an accessible route. We've provided the designated aisle seats. We've provided the wheelchair seats. When a jurisdiction is telling us to do different than what we believe the code language states, we question it.

 

[JPohling]

I am very familiar with this. I perform the architectural modifications to Petco Park. These seats you are referring to absolutely do not need to be on the accessible route, but they do need to be the closest to the route. Typically they are located at the end of the top row and or bottom row of the seating bowl, but they are absolutely able to be down and or up stairs to get to them. The seat needs to be identified as such.

 

[Builder Bob]

For further understanding, can a designated aisle seat also be a companion seat for accessible viewers.

 

[JPohling]

The companion seats are located adjacent to the wheelchair spaces along the accessible path. The designated aisle seats are just that. Designated seats within the "able bodied" aisles of seats. They are provided in a number that is based upon the quantity of seats available in that seating section. It is a separate requirement.

 

[mark handler]

We have a project which falls under the provisions of 1104B.3 of the CBC for accessibility. The jurisdiction is indicating that the designated aisle seats must be on the accessible route. However, the language in 1104B.3.9 states the following: The designated aisle seats shall be those located closest to accessible routes. To me that says they do not have to be on the accessible route as long as they are close. Our issue is in meeting the slope requirements for an accessible route as we have more than five percent slope. Does anyone have any experience in this area or some insight they could pass my direction?

Thanks.

Time to start using our brains.

If the seats are not on an accessible route, they are not accessible.

If you cannot get there they are not accessible.

 

[Codegeek]

Time to start using our brains. If the seats are not on an accessible route, they are not accessible.

If you cannot get there they are not accessible.

If the seats are not intended for someone in a wheelchair, but rather someone who is able bodied, then why does the language in the code state located closest to accessible routes and not "located on an accessible route"? If I'm able bodied, I can go down stairs or move down a sloped surface which is greater than 5 percent.

 

[mark handler]

CBC 2010 1104b.3.9 ???

1134b3.5 "...wheel chair space shall adjoin an accessible route. .."

 

[Codegeek]

1104B.3.9 Designated aisle seats. In addition to the wheelchair spaces required, 5 percent, but not less than one, of all fixed seats, shall be designated aisle seats with no armrests on the aisle side, or with removable or folding armrests on the aisle side. The designated aisle seats shall be those located closest to accessible routes. Each such seat shall be identified by a sign or marker with the International Symbol of Accessibility (see Figure 11B-6). Signage notifying patrons of the availability of such seats shall be posted at the ticket office. Signs and markers shall comply with Section 1117B.5.1 Items 2 and 3, as applicable.



The designated aisle seats are NOT for wheelchair spaces.

 

[globe trekker]

Codegeek,

Have you contacted the AHJ for a more in-depth explanation of their interpretation?

.

 

[Codegeek]

Codegeek,Have you contacted the AHJ for a more in-depth explanation of their interpretation?

.

We're working on that. I was trying to get some understanding of the code requirement so to better prepare our staff.

 

[globe trekker]

Codegeek,

As always, if you're able, please let us know the outcome! Ya, we wanna know!

.

 

[Codegeek]

Codegeek,As always, if you're able, please let us know the outcome! Ya, we wanna know!

.

Will do. I've also sent emails to several of my contacts who are code officials in various locations in California. So far, the consensus is that the designated aisle seats are in addition to those spaces required for wheelchairs and are therefore permitted to be on stairs or a walking surface which is greater than 5 percent as these seats are intended for able bodied individuals.

 

[mark handler]

The designated aisle seats shall be those located closest to accessible routes.

Are you proposing having a"Designated aisle seat" user transcend twenty other seats to sit?

Designated aisle seats, are seats that allow side transfer from a wheelchair. this allows a chair user to sit in a "real" chair/seat.

 

[Codegeek]

The designated aisle seats shall be those located closest to accessible routes. Where do you want to place the seating for the "semi-ambulant individuals"?Are you proposing having a walker user transcend twenty other seats to sit?

No, I'm not proposing someone to transcend twenty other seats to sit. I'm asking a simple question. If the sloped walking surface is in excess of 5 percent and the seats are still on the aisle, does that not meet the requirement. I don't know why you seem to want to pick a fight with me or insult my intelligence. I'm asking because I'm trying to understand. I'm attempting to attach an image of one of the theaters as an example. The highlighted seats are the designated aisle seats and you can see what travel distances we're dealing with in this specific example. View attachment 763

View attachment 763

/monthly_2013_07/Capture.PNG.cd44124997db62f82dfb806bdea8433b.PNG

 

[mark handler]

No, I'm not proposing someone to transcend twenty other seats to sit. I'm asking a simple question. If the sloped walking surface is in excess of 5 percent and the seats are still on the aisle, does that not meet the requirement. I don't know why you seem to want to pick a fight with me or insult my intelligence. I'm asking because I'm trying to understand. I'm attempting to attach an image of one of the theaters as an example. The highlighted seats are the designated aisle seats and you can see what travel distances we're dealing with in this specific example.

View attachment 1793

So the question should relate to the definition of what is an accessible route.