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Dormer Ridge Board or Beam

KZQuixote said:
Hi Francis,"...Photo ( taken from web )..." Am I to understand that this is an academic exercise or is the photo of a job you're actually dealing with?

Thanks

Bill
Bill,

This is as close of a picture I could find to try and show what's on the plans. Found it on Fine Home Construction Forum (I think) but I wasn't looking for the picture as I was doing the research.
 
Francis Vineyard said:
Apologize for not posting drawings from the plans; I’m not computer savvy enough yet to reduce resolution to the download limit. I kicked back the plans for not giving the existing roof detail and ceiling floor joist size and wanted to be prepared for this next step.The 8 ft. wide dormer is for headroom of back to back tub/shower in the center of a 64’ x 40’ house.

R802.3 in part says “Where the roof pitch is less than three units vertical in 12 units horizontal, structural member that support rafters and ceiling joists, such as ridge beams, hips and valleys, shall be designed as beams.

However;

R802.3.1 “Where ceiling joists or rafter ties are not provided, the ridge formed by these rafters shall be supported by a wall or girder designed in accordance with accepted engineering practice.

I was in agreement with the majority posted here but talking with a couple of local hammerheads (a new word I learned for the trade dictionary) they routinely attach to the 1x ridge board in this manner which is telling me other jurisdictions have been approving this installation. I need proof not just because that's how we’ve always done it!

Reference: Southern Pine Maximum Spans guide;

"Ridge beams must be installed at roof peaks with rafters bearing directly on the ridge beam or supported by hangers or framing anchors. Ceiling joists are not required when properly designed ridge beams are used.

A ridge board may be substituted for a ridge beam when the roof slope equals or exceeds 3 in 12, except that ridge beams are required for cathedral ceilings. Rafters must be placed directly opposite each other, and ceiling joists must be installed parallel with rafters to provide a continuous tie between exterior walls".

Guess really what I was asking if this type of dormer would be framed similar to floor openings as what is shown in the R/H drawing sourced from “Building Construction Illustrated; Francis D. K. Ching and Cassandra Adams? Where a header is sized as a beam supported by the double rafter trimmers. But is drawing is not showing this.

Welcome dehngr, ditto what Mule said. I must be a glutton for punishment since I cannot stop learning my lessons here.
Technically, Ching's illustration does not comply with the code, unless the ridges are designed as beams. By the way, Ching's BCI was required for my freshman year in architecture school.
 
Yankee said:
Just so it is clear, all ceiling joists acting as rafter ties attached anywhere above the rafter support wall need their span shortened by the amount in the table referenced at the bottom of table R802.5.1, , , and that table allows the adjustment a tie to a maximum of 1/3rd the height to the ridge. Contractors use that "1/3rd" statement a lot without making the span adjustment required.
Not necessarily true. If you calculate out some of the installations, sometimes the rafters are adequate without increasing their size.
 
I don't know if I accidently closed this thread. If I did I screwed up! I am going to open it up because I see no reason to close it. If it was closed by another moderator I apologize for overstepping my authority but I do not see a reason for closing it!
 
"We've been doing it that way for years, and nobody has been killed."
The "we've" in this instance is the industry as far as I can tell, I've gotten this detail many times and as I pointed out this was engineered. Please explain the reason or math that makes it fail in your opinion. This was prescriptive to my understanding up until the '06 cycle.

Very often the rafter depth is determined by insulation requirements, that was my comment on them often being deeper than structurally necessary. In the pic I posted also notice where the tie is joining the main rafter. I'd agree with Mule here.
 
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Mule said:
I don't know if I accidently closed this thread. If I did I screwed up! I am going to open it up because I see no reason to close it. If it was closed by another moderator I apologize for overstepping my authority but I do not see a reason for closing it!
Mule, there has been much worst things said, so I don't think an apology is needed from you.

I'm of the mind that the IRC is prescriptive and when it states "designed in accordance with accepted engineering practice" means what is accepted as standard in the field, not to "support your local engineer".

brudgers what are those notches on top of the rafter?
 
Francis:

Reread my earlier post; the shed dormer roof is framed more like a floor, at or around a large opening in the main roof, with the shed rafters acting more like fl. jsts. The low slope rafters would cause too much thrust if we expected them to act in the trussing fashion as we normally think of for a normal pitched roof; that is rafters for top chords and ceiling jst. tension ties as bottom chords. The shed rafters are supported on the exterior wall on one end, and on a properly designed header on the other end, up near the main roof ridge. This header then spans to the dormer side walls which are picked up by the new doubled or tripled main roof rafters (you said rafter trimmers) which support both the side wall and the new header and span up to the main roof ridge. Someone has to make a conscious design decision about sizing these new primary spanning members and carrying their new concentrated reactions down to the found., and this all has to be done paying attention to what this does to the existing structure. The 3/12 rafter slope is not a magic number, it’s just a good place to draw the line in a prescriptive code. Think of it this way: studs and columns are one extreme, infinite pitch, and no lateral thrust on the wall below; a 24/12 pitch rafter acts mostly like a column, but causes some thrust; fl. jsts. are beams, zero pitch, and no thrust on the wall below; and as you start to increase the pitch, the member still acts as a beam, and the reaction seats must be horiz. so the reactions are vert., but if we try to make it act as a normal stick framed gable roof the thrust is almost infinite, or the tie tensions are almost infinite, this the 3/12 cutoff.

Because I’ve done enough of these my rule of thumb is, but NOT to be construed as your absolute certified design criteria: on an 8' wide dormer, I generally think in terms of moving the old rafters I’m removing out under the side walls of the dormer, I still have basically the same roof LL, but some additional DL for the new constr., so I must need at least the same amount of framing (rafter type beams) in the main roof. For an 8' wide dormer, with 16" o/c main rafter framing that would mean removing 5 old rafters, so being the conservative old guy that I am, I’ll put 3 ganged rafters under each side wall. Every experienced carpenter know and does this. Except, there are a hundred little details which come into play; what are the existing roof conditions, we have unbalanced rafter thrusts up at the main ridge now, when does that new upper header start to get to long and when do the various concentrated reactions get to large? Does my rule of thumb start to go to hell at 10 or 12' wide dormers? Someone has to make that determination, and while you shouldn’t be doing the builder’s engineering for him, and the code doesn’t tell you everything for every situation, you have to have enough structural intuition, if you’re going to be a good builder or bldg. inspector to know when to call for help.

George and I can’t compete with the lumber yard when they give away member sizing to sell the material. But, read the fine print on your bill or on the computer printout they give you, they assume absolutely no responsibility for your design. You gave them all the loads, or maybe not, you know the framing details and connections, or maybe not, they don’t, so ya pays your money and takes your chances. A good structural engineer is your best friend, and they like talking about this stuff; hire one once in awhile, or take one out for lunch, they can really be helpful without necessarily breaking the bank. You young inspectors and builders would do will to develop a meaningful relationship with a good engineer. We can’t give it all away, after all we make our living selling our services, knowledge and experience, but a few minute question on the phone or some advice over a beer or two usually doesn’t cost you much.
 
DRP..... The idea that ‘we’ve been doing it that way for years’ doesn’t make it right. It might just be that they have been very lucky doing it wrong, or at least not the best way. Likely, they have never seen the max. design wind, EQ, or LL, and gotten by on the code’s factors of safety. That may be that builder’s norm, but that doesn’t make it an industry std., and many times it’s far from a good industry std. I would say the IRC is the industry std. without much need for additional engineering. I can push thing further, many times, when I use IBC on your project. I must say I’m not sure exactly what detail you’re talking about, although I’ve heard “we’ve always done it that way” hundreds of times when I commented on a bad construction detail or condition.

Francis.... The IRC is most certainly a prescriptive code. It has been written and shows tables, values and sketches, etc. which have been fairly conservatively engineered to keep you and builders out of trouble, in most cases; as long as the follow it, without stretching it, and read and understand all the footnotes, commentary and fine print. It generally follows the IBC and well tested construction and engineering practice but is somewhat conservative, because it is recognized that there might not be much engineering oversight on most of the projects. My interpretation of "designed in accordance with accepted engineering practice" when used in the IRC means engineering beyond that already provided in the IRC, and that you do need an engineer’s involvement. Std. industry practice and details usually don’t require much additional engineering. The notches in the top of the gable rafter are to receive look-out cantilever members to frame the rake ladder framing in the same plane under the roof sheathing.

Mule.... Thank you for the warm welcome, and now you see what was blocked, thanks for the unlock. Certainly no apology required, I’m just a confused beginner on your forum, and not a particularly savvy internet and computer user. I do hope to be a constructive contributor.
 
dhengr

I apologize for not making it clearer that the picture is not the job I was working on but very similar to what was shown on the plans and questioning how to determine the proper size of the ridge board base on what is standard practice.

Your first post through me off a little calling out the R/H sketch as a beam when it shows a board; but as texasbo stated the sketch is not code. I believed it was because of what I heard in the office before posting.

I understand your explanation about rule of thumb; it applies with the prescriptive method as where not all construction is back and white. One area the code does not address to my knowledge is headers for non-bearing walls and exterior non-bearing walls supporting more than one story. An inspector turned these down and an engineer called back wanted to know what the code prescribes and then approved them. That does not mean I can take this as standards of practice. But I can use better judgment next time on what an engineer may approve. This involves judgment as you say on where to draw the line.

You’ve presented an opportunity for another topic I’ve wanted to bring up, appreciate all the inputs thus far.
 
dhengr: Welcome to the forum! Already, you are a constructive contributor.

As you say, developing an appropriate sense of when to seek help is a very important part, both of building, and, of performing building inspections. I think this conceptualization of our jobs, (municipal and independent inspectors), defines our place accurately. There are posts in these forums that suggest that our jobs as inspectors do not, or rather, should not include offering building solutions. But, I offer solutions all the time based on my knowledge of the building code, and, repetitive exposure to engineered solutions.

The idea you express concerning supply sizing members, and, "so ya pays your money and takes your chances" best defines in this forum the design professional.

The design professional takes legal responsibility for his building advice. The rest of us are simply giving our building advice.
 
Francis..... I did understand that the photo in your OP was not from your actual job, but rather an approx. look-alike. I do need to see the real plans to start to comment meaningfully, rather than in generalities, I won’t normally do engineering over the phone or on a forum. With either you or a contractor, once we have worked together for awhile, so I know what you know, I know the quality of your workmanship, and know how you interpret what I tell you to do, by my struct. plans and details, a quick sketch or verbally, then I may do some quick engineering by phone to keep you working, but I will still want a follow up hard copy of what you are doing, for the file and so I know you understood. There’s no other way for us to run our respective businesses these days, and to stay on the straight and narrow. I believe I said, or meant to say, the left sketch you posted, a std. symmetrical gable dormer can usually get buy with a ridge board, as long as the rafters line up and there are ceiling jst. ties. And, the R/H sketch, a shed dormer does need a beam, a header up, near the main roof ridge to pick up the shed rafters, which at that low slope ack like simple beams or fl. jsts.

Regarding ‘headers for non-load bearing walls’.... headers, are headers, are beams, whatever you call them. I need to know the span length and loading to design a beam; and then I am concerned about bending and shear stresses, proper beam bracing, reactions and supports below, and deflection for serviceability. You’ve got to develop an eye for the loads and load paths. Most header tables assume generally uniform loads from above, if you call cripple studs and the fl. or roof above as a uniform load, not completely unreasonable in my world. What you need to look for is that the jambs from openings above all line up vertically so one of them doesn’t put a large concentrated load at the middle of a header below. On gable ends, smaller headers often can be used, but most carpenters tend not to do that out of expediency; they have one guy making up headers, jack studs and cutting cripples by the hundreds, and they don’t want to fart around with different depth headers, or don’t have the smaller 2x’s on the job. But, on lightly loaded headers they could use a single 2x8 or 2x10 instead of double 2x’s. But, this presents a problem for them too, since now they need some different sized ripped blocking for sht.rk. or siding nailing at the header. If headers is your new question, lets broach that in a new thread. Ten years of experience provides a whole bunch of “better judgement,” so keep at it.

Building is no longer black and white, and you young code inspectors have a hell of a lot to learn about the practical nature of the process; and then you have the cook book, we call it a code, to memorize, letter for letter, without a good basic understanding of where the letters really came from, or a good understanding of the general structural concepts. This is not to damn you, it is to damn the excessive complexity that is showing up in our codes today. You must understand the basics, because there is no way we can possibly write a cook book to cover everything, all the time. But, that is what they seem to be trying to do. Half the time we are arguing on these forums about how much is a pinch of salt, but nobody knows what the hell we are really cooking. These considerations are what make older engineers who’ve actually designed bldgs. such good plan checkers and older builders such good inspectors, that experience and basic knowledge; otherwise we’re all kinda in the same boat trying to interpret the complexity of the latest codes.

Jobsaver.... I don’t compete with you guys, most of my bldg. inspecting is after the fact, after the problems have developed, and now how to fix them or who’s at fault and gets to pay to fix them. Knock wood, I’ve never had to defend any of my own work anywhere near a court. I think you do have the right idea, we are paying you to keep it safe and done correctly, and to use your experience and judgement, and knowledge of the code, to be as helpful as you can while enforcing the bldg. code in a pleasant way when that is possible and practical. Sometimes you do have to be a dink to get your point across, but that or playing God should not be your general rule. You should offer solutions, within the code and your experience, why not, why make life miserable for everyone; you should not be doing much real engineering if you aren’t one; but you do have one advantage as you suggest, and that’s the difference btwn. my “legal responsibility” and your “advice.” It really boils down to the fact that none of us should be giving advice if we are not qualified in that area. You should get to know a good Structural Engineer, they can really be your best friend, when you’re not fightin with them.
 
dhengr mentioned diaphragms in another thread.

Many people have mentioned the thrust of the rafters against the shed roof.

One aspect of a diaphragm is that it can be used to control thrust. In this particular instance the shed roof diaphragm transfers much of the thrust to the dormer end walls and then to (I guess) the floor joists.

It is east to say a certain construction is not-prescriptive. It is much harder to say the construction is poor. (I would like to be critical about the attachment of the shed roof to the ridge board, but I am having a hard time in finding something that provably wrong. Seems to be a common position I find myself in.)
 
Thank you to everyone for the warm welcome. And, Jar546 (Jeff, is it?), thank you for the tip-of-the-hat, I hope that doesn’t end up in the Federal Register, and/or ever come back to haunt me.

GH.... I often find myself in the same situation, and you said; “(I would like to be critical about the attachment of the shed roof to the ridge board, but I am having a hard time in finding something that provably wrong. Seems to be a common position I find myself in.)” After years of experience, gut feeling, intuition, etc. make some things pop out when I see them, ‘I don’t like that, there is something wrong with that detail, I can’t put my finger on it at the moment, let me think about it for awhile.’ And, if I can’t rationalize how it works and put some numbers on it, to my own satisfaction, I won’t sign off on it. After all, I am the one who will have to defend my work and detail if things don’t work, so irrespective of the IRC or IBC, I have to be confident of my solution, by ‘applying rational and acceptable engineering methods and standards’ (from another thread). We might change it, to our mutual satisfaction, maybe not really to your liking, or you have the option of finding someone else to approve it and sign off on it. In my mind, it’s got to be ‘provably right’ or it’s wrong; to that extent I would change your wording.

The photo that came with the OP was a cobbled mess, about a 20' long change in a light ridge board and roof system. I’d have to look long and hard at that structure, and we’d probably change some things based on what I could see. The later photo by DRP, of new construction, certainly looks like I could make that work. As he suggested, added shear panels at corners, good new roof sheathing diaphragms, etc., we have a chance to make adjustments to the structure to account for all of the loads and reactions and unbalanced roof load conditions. The std. shed dormer we’ve been talking about, in the 8 - 12' wide range, I’ve seen work often enough that it’s pretty routine. Wider than that requires a bit more design and attention to detail. We all have a fair handle on how a std. gable roof works; imagine a cross section through the bldg., matching rafters aligned put no lateral bending in the ridge board, thrusts cancel each other out at the ridge; ridge board primarily holds rafters aligned, braced and properly spaced, and that’s about all; clg. jsts. act as tension ties for thrusts at lower brgs. of rafters. It’s a simple triangular trussed framing system, very efficient and stable. Now, plumb cut the existing rafters on the left roof plane, 18 or 24" below the existing ridge and install an appropriate header at this elevation, and tie this into new rafter/girders at the dormer side walls. Quality of joinery and connections is very important here, this new framing and attachment to existing framing should not be a cobbled mess. If you attach the new sheathing, only 24" wide, to the ridge and the new header and the other framing, we have a 24" deep beam or diaphragm, in the plane of the old roof. We will try to make this take the unbalanced thrusts at the ridge out to the dormer side walls and back into the original roof system. But, by making this 8 - 12' wide cut, out of the existing roof plane, we are concentrating all of the various loads and forces from the original and the new roof systems at the side walls of the dormer. It’s not always easy, and if you do a crappy job of plumb cutting the old rafters, so they don’t fit-up to the header, or get yanked around, and loose, up at the ridge, you are starting to defeat what we have to accomplish.

It takes a fair amount of thought to really go through this problem a step at a time and really follow the load paths. The fact that many cobbled together jobs are still standing is more a testament to code factors of safety, material allowable stress FofS’s, and the fact that we don’t often see the max. design loads, than it is proof that poor construction or bad details do work, just because we’ve always done it that way.

Merry Christmas to all, Dick
 
If Francis doesn't mind a hijack, I think a sketch might help move us along;
attachment.php
This is a 12/12 main roof and a 3/12 shed dormer. The building is 24' wide, the peak is centered. The tie is well connected.Why does this require a ridge at all?I plan on sheathing the dormer support wall and main roof but plan to skip sheath the shed roof. I'll let you plug in your own variables, please show me why this wouldn't work or what you would do differently.

View attachment 311

View attachment 311

/monthly_2010_12/572953bc65c93_sheddormer.jpg.cccb7703ab3c57e700e76c6bade6f465.jpg
 
DRP said:
If Francis doesn't mind a hijack,
You're wrong, that is not a hijack! Just taking it a step further on the path to enlightenment.

I believe that is showing a conventional framing of a dormer shed roof similar to one the AWC Framing Manuals
 
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Your 12/12 rafters need to take a span reduction according to the tables in the code(don't have it here on Xmas morning) if they work....they work! They usually don't...at least not around here! Also around here, the roof insulation drives the rafter size most of the time......
 
that could have been my prior home.. very typically done to get a little more room in the "attic" space.. usually for a bathroom, or walk in closet.
 
steveray said:
Your 12/12 rafters need to take a span reduction according to the tables in the code(don't have it here on Xmas morning) if they work....they work! They usually don't...at least not around here! Also around here, the roof insulation drives the rafter size most of the time......
How does the span reduction table work in this case?
 
in 12/12 probably not, yankee.. the new dormer has a flattened pitch, so it does.. the floor joints (which are the ceiling joists before you build the dormer) are the stablizing force. For the "new" joists, collar ties or ceiling joists are required.. unless the ridge board is acting as a beam (which is probably is). Nothing says the beam needs to be anything more than a 1x but you need to consider it.
 
steveray, I agree, insulation is almost always driving the main rafter depth, for new construction this is always a 2x12 from my experience.

Thinking more;

The main rafter is tied at its' foot. The dormer rafter is tied at its' foot. The footnote table for raised ties doesn't really apply, there is no raised tie in the sense the table was meant to address. Prescriptively I could argue the dormer tie forms a collar tie on the main rafter in this case but that would be outside of the intent. The dormer tie is adding bending stress to the main rafter that the rafter span table does not address but less than the raised tie footnote is trying to resist, and we are higher than the current table's prescription.
 
DRP said:
Prescriptively I could argue the dormer tie forms a collar tie on the main rafter in this case but that would be outside of the intent. The dormer tie is adding bending stress to the main rafter that the rafter span table does not address but less than the raised tie footnote is trying to resist, and we are higher than the current table's prescription.
In applying the prescriptive codes one does not mention stress or strain. They are only used after a design is determined to not be prescriptive.
 
Lets get back on track, I'm more interested in structure.

This is a 12/12 main roof and a 3/12 shed dormer. The building is 24' wide, the peak is centered. The tie is well connected.

attachment.php


Why does this require a ridge at all?

I plan on sheathing the dormer support wall and main roof but plan to skip sheath the shed roof. I'll let you plug in your own variables, please show me why this wouldn't work or what you would do differently.
 
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