DWV system for bathroom / laundry room in Louisiana?

[ZanneJ]

Thank you, BSSTG. I guess my obsession with drawing can be helpful sometimes. I am not very good at it, but I enjoy graphics. I've been trying to learn how to do better. I pretty much just looked at other examples of how people drew things. As for the isometric drawings, I took the measurements and multiplied them by 4 to get specific numbers of pixels. Obviously it is still an approximation because I couldn't get things to be exact with that method.

I am leaning toward CPVC for a number of reasons. I know that PEX is nice and flexible but it is also more vulnerable to pests. I've heard there are certain bugs that eat through it and I have pets that might claw or chew through it because that's what pets do. I know that whoever built the house did not seal the floor inside the walls so there are openings in the walls that go straight down to under the house. It allows mice and snakes in. Snakes won't do anything to the pipes but mice are destructive little things-- cute little buggers, but destructive. The mouse number has gone down bc of the cats at least. When we first moved back there were mice all over-- in the cabinets, pantry, walls, stove, attic, couch... The tenants apparently never cleaned and the place was just infested. It's frustrating, but we've been trying to clean up. The cabinets were so bad that I had to just slather the insides with Killz because I couldn't wash the mouse crud off.

My friend took a video of under the house and I got screen captures, but I need to weed out which ones are good enough to upload and if I still need to go get some more pictures because its still not very clear how everything is hooked up.

Since you're an inspector, could you please tell me where I would need to place the cleanouts and which fittings I would need for the sewer pipes to hook things together? I'm still trying to figure out if the washing machine needs to be up stream of the toilet and if its still ok to have the lavatory downstream of the toilet. I've read somewhere that washing machines can dump a lot of water and cause other fixtures to siphon. I want to avoid that. Is it ok to attach the washer, bathtub/shower, and lavatory to the top instead of the side of the main soil pipe?

I know I've asked these questions before, but I want to make sure I have things right before I embark on this project.

 

[codejourneyman]

Here's a few answers to a few of your questions. Horizontal to horizontal 90 degree changes in direction require the equivilant of a wye+1/8 bend.

The test for wast pipe is a head test. Fill the pipe until it overflows the vent. Do not air test plastic pipe. Water is tested by hooking it to the supply.

Tubs do not require a flood test but shower pans do. Test the pan before any mortar or tile. There is another test after the shower is finished but it is not a required test so I won't go into that.

I don't know what a vikril surround is but wonder board does wonders.

Whatever you want on the ceiling is okay by the code.

My plumbing skills aren't that great. Plumbing is the least of the trades. If the $h!t leaves the building it's pretty much good enough.

Wow. I am pretty new here so I have not read that many posts but, I find the second sentence of your last paragraph really short sighted and quite offensive. But then your first sentence would indicate that you in fact do not know of what you speak. I agree pretty much with your last sentence. However, that is the trick. Plumb it properly and therefore accomplish the task as noted in the last sentence. I am a Texas Master Plumber and I have made a lot of money through the years cleaning up messes made those that share your attitude. Am really surprised to see this level of disrespect from someone involved in this forum.

 

[ICE]

texasbo is that you? If not, Shirley, you should meet each other.

As to being offended....it's not like I established the pecking order of trades. Come to think of it roofing could be behind plumbing. Does that help? And hey now, insulating....well it's hard to call insulating a trade isn't it.

Seriously though...when I said that plumbing is the least of the trades, I was comparing plumbing with building, electrical and mechanical trades. So there you go. Somebody had to come in last and plumbing won that title.

 

[jar546]

Wow. I am pretty new here so I have not read that many posts but, I find the second sentence of your last paragraph really short sighted and quite offensive. But then your first sentence would indicate that you in fact do not know of what you speak. I agree pretty much with your last sentence. However, that is the trick. Plumb it properly and therefore accomplish the task as noted in the last sentence. I am a Texas Master Plumber and I have made a lot of money through the years cleaning up messes made those that share your attitude. Am really surprised to see this level of disrespect from someone involved in this forum.

codejourneyman, welcome to the forum and thank you for participating. One thing that you will see is that we have a variety of people posting with a variety of styles and professionalism. Sometimes things may get a little heated but we try to play fair. I hope that the post you quoted does not keep you away. Thanks again for coming here and participating.

 

[Bitterroot]

re: question about water supply piping. PVC (white); as said before ok for drain/waste piping, not for water supply inside house.

You might be seeing CPVC water supply piping (ivory color). There should be printing on the side of the piping to identify it. Other water supply piping could include copper, PB (Polybutylene, gray plastic flexible tubing - bad stuff, no longer manufactured), or newer PEX (flexible plastic tubing of various colors - good stuff).

side note: would be very cautious about having a window within your bathtub/shower enclosure. No matter how well you think the window and window sill is sealed, there is opportunity for water spray from showerhead to seep into the window framing and down inside the wall, creating moisture damage, mold, etc. Suggest either reduce size of window and raise it so sill is high enough so it will not be exposed to spray from showerhead, change to glass block for light (no ventilation), or remove it all together and insure an adequate bathroom exhaust vent is installed.

 

[north star]

= * = * =

Bitteroot,

Welcome to The Building Codes Forum !

* = * = *

 

[ZanneJ]

Thank you for the replies. For some odd reason I did not get an e-mail alert even though I selected that option.

I'm not going to get into a debate over the hierarchy of the trades. I think that could be rather subjective. I think most of them require at least rudimentary knowledge of math and require training in things that the average joe probably never even thinks about. I actually wish they would teach more about these subjects in public schools because I think people need to have a basic understanding of how things work and why. I have respect for the people who learn the trades and endeavor to do a good job.

Bitterroot, thank you for the suggestions. I've been thinking of trying to find a way to put up some sort of curtain that will press up and sort of seal up against the wall to keep water out of the window, but that it can be something that can be easily removed or moved out of the way if necessary. It would be nice to be able to use the sill for a shelf though. It would not be an egress window by any means. It is too small for anyone in the family to climb through. I hope that will not be a problem because changing the size of the window is probably not an option for us.

I vaguely recall over 20 years ago when my father was doing some minor repairs and he showed me the different pipes and fittings. He told me the white ones were for cold water and the yellowish ones were for hot water. Apparently when we first moved in, the water supply lines for the outside fixtures (hoses and such) were all ABS. At least that is what my mother just told me. I guess my father wasn't aware that PVC is not allowed for use above ground for potable water supply lines (unless that was a rule change made in the last 20 years).

I managed to snap a few not-so-clear pictures from the side of the house (east side facing west) and I have screen captures from the southern end (southeast corner). The camera was panned to the west and then south. Let's just say that I'm not happy with what I saw.

I was too lazy to label things so I will try to describe things

First I took a picture of the outside of the house showing how/where I accessed the space for the picture. My cat, Imhotep, decided to photobomb. This was taken from the east side of the house facing west. It is rather close to the south end of the house. Sorry for the trash. Trashcans got knocked over and wind blew stuff under the house. I really need to start picking that stuff up and hauling it off.

This is the southern view of the pipe coming down from the water closet. It branches off to the south (left) to an ABS fitting and then goes back up in to the house inside the wall in to the main vent pipe.

This is a little bit more to the north (still facing west) and you can see what someone told me is a pressure fitting instead of a tee. I am not certain, but I think that is the drain pipe for the shower. The soil pipe is actually almost buried in the dirt. The zig-zagging PVC pipe probably contains some sort of wiring. I think it is electrical, but I am not sure. I don't know if that setup is ok but I sort of suspect that it is not. Now that I think about it, I think that may be leading to the power outlet for the washer/dryer.

Following that pipe northward I can't tell if it just ends or if it is stuck in to some sort of black ABS fitting. Ah, now that I tipped my screen I see that it *is* an ABS fitting and it goes up in to the house so I think that it is tying to the lavatory drain. I'm guessing that because of the water supply line nearby. I'm pretty sure the proximity and the waterline being underneath is a code violation. (or does it count if the waterline goes underground?)

What I can't see from those pictures is if either of those things have a vent. I also saw no P-trap for the shower. I'm not good at spotting these things so it mostly looks like a jumble to me.

Here is the exterior view of the southeast corner (taken from the south facing north)

These were taken from a video taken with a cellphone camera so the quality is not great. This starts the view facing north near the east side under the house. I see the black fitting tying things together. So that white piece coming out of it is the vent for the toilet and goes to the main vent stack. I see something with three 90degree elbows starting from the west and traveling past the toilet vent to go up in to the wall just east of the toilet vent. I can't tell exactly from were it originated. I'm also assuming it goes up in to the wall because I think it hooks in to something black and I'm just hoping that it isn't terminating there.

Next is a fuzzy shot from when the camera panned westward more. I see what I think is the waste pipe for the washing machine just left of the milk jug. Looks like it just goes straight down in to the soil pipe without any sort of P-trap.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t1.0-9/10450764_10152149509475168_8470963218019220809_n.jpg

(to be continued in next post due to image number limits)

 

[ZanneJ]

Oops. Didn't end the image tag right. Is there any way for me to go back and edit my posts? I wish I could fix that. (I always type the codes out manually bc its faster for me than clicking on the little icons).

Moving along. This follows the path southward. I think I see some water supply lines and then it goes to the waste line for the former utility sink. I'm not sure, but it looks to me as if the waste line travels back east instead of going west. It appears to just go in to the ground...

So, is this as bad as I think? I know that my old late plumber told me that the tenants had *really* effed up the plumbing and that it needed to be redone. I've since learned from a friend that the plumber I haven't met yet will not go in to crawlspaces and that he basically just told my friend exactly what to do, what fittings to use, and then left (after charging him for the consult). Apparently by having my friend do the work instead it saved some money but I don't know by how much since my friend's uncle paid for it.

I think the waterlines will have to be moved farther away from the waste pipes and I know the ABS fittings have to go. I can't tell if its all PVC or if any of that is CPVC.. I will need to find a way to trace things out better. But the lack of P-traps is disturbing. I'm pretty sure there is no P-trap on the standpipe in the laundry room, but I can't really see behind the washer very well.

 

[ZanneJ]

I apologize for the large size of my images. I wish that I knew how to resize them. I also wish that I had the option to edit my posts. I immediately realized my typo in one of the posts above but was unable to edit it. But its not a big deal.

Anyway, I snagged a few more photos. I realized that the exterior location I showed on the east side was not accurate. It was too far south. So I snapped another picture showing the general location of where I started out with the photos. You can see a hole where the dryer vent pipe comes out. The cover for it wouldn't stay on after we had the siding done. The contractor who did the siding passed away so I wasn't able to contact him about getting it put back on properly. I stuck the camera under the part to the right of the cement support thingy (not sure what its called-- pylon?). I knelt down on the flattened mountain dew box.

I'm guessing that white pipe is PVC. It's the water supply for the toilet going just above the fitting where the toilet drain links to the main vent pipe.

Sorry for the fuzzy quality of the second picture. Mosquito bit me when I was trying to get the shot so I moved a little.

I think the black thing is ABS and I sort of suspect that the size of the vent pipe is actually too small if I understand the code properly. Shouldn't it stay at like 3 inches at least until it gets to a certain height?

I somehow think this job would not have passed inspection if one had been done. I foresee buying quite a bit of PVC and maybe some CPVC in my future. LOL.

On a side note, does anyone know of videos or instructions on how to prepare a new area for installing a tub in an area that didn't already have a tub? I keep seeing ones about replacing tubs or replacing showers with tubs or vice versa, but I can't seem to find something that details the process of reinforcing the structure, leveling the floor, etc. I also keep seeing more stuff about tiling the walls instead of putting up a surround. Any references with pictures would be great. I'll have to poke around on this forum to see if that has been discussed here already. Hopefully my internet won't be a failbot on me when searching. I sometimes have issues with it.

Also, thank you guys for hanging in and helping me out with this.

 

[ZanneJ]

Adding the revised sketch of the current setup of the DWV (from what I've been able to see when analyzing pictures).

I left out some of the mystery pipes and tried to describe things as best as I could. I didn't know the names of some of the things.

 

[ZanneJ]

I discovered that at least one of the mystery pipes is a de***t water supply line for the old washing machine. I'm currently debating whether to just go ahead and cram all of the fixtures on the south wall to allow for a wider door. Then I can put the vents inside the exterior wall and route them up and either link them up inside the wall and have them go out the wall and around the soffit or have them connect inside the attic with the main vent stack. I think the main vent stack approach would require more materials. It will also be a bit more cramped. I really do need to lay out a template on the ground and figure out how it would feel to walk through the space with different configurations. It's tempting to put the toilet up against the south wall where I planned to put the vanity, but pretty much all of the home design programs I've seen say that people don't want to see the toilet first thing when they open the door. My only concern on that is that it might make the house harder to sell. Does anyone think it really matters?

I also now think that the main vent is of insufficient diameter. I'm not the best at judging size, but I think the toilet has a 3" drain (I suppose I could measure to get an approximation of size) and it reduces to what looks to me to be a 1.5" pipe. IIRC, the pipe will have to be larger than that. Also, is it ok to reduce the size of the vent pipe once it is in the attic and just about to jut through the roof? My brain is not working right now so I can't remember the vent size requirements. I vaguely recall something about 1/2 the size of the drain but that it might have to increase if there is more load.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to pick a decent surround that won't break the bank but that will be functional and not fall apart, stain, or get scratched up within the first couple of years. Are ASB brand surrounds any good or are they crap? I keep seeing them listed on HD's website. I'm also trying to figure out how to do the edges since the surround for the shower/tub will be thicker than the rest of the room. I'm thinking of using 1/4" wonderboard lite around the tub/shower but keeping the same thickness of the current wall panels (although maybe I could put new wall panels over the old ones to make the walls a teeny bit thicker. I'll have to add trim at the top and bottom to cover gaps.

I'm also wondering if it would be at all possible to keep the dryer duct egress in its current location and still manage to fit the duct behind/next to the tub, but I think the duct would be too large for that. I need to ascertain the height of the duct hole. And I need to figure out a way to make it easier to move the washer and dryer without scraping the floor in case I need to get behind them or move them over.

Any ideas/suggestion?

 

[ICE]

Any ideas/suggestion?

Well I did but I had to delete it. First of all, it was less than kind and secondly, you might think it's a good idea.

 

[ZanneJ]

LOL. The e-mail preserved the question about fire insurance.

Yeah, there are a lot of "friction fires" around here. We've thought about it, but we wouldn't ever do it.

But sadly we don't have insurance right now. After paying a claim, State Farm canceled our insurance and gave some bogus reasons. They claimed the policy holder didn't live here and that there were holes in the siding-- both of which are not true, but apparently two claims in 10 years makes them angry (previous claim was for tree damage to car port and fence)-- the one valid thing was the debris in the yard, but that was part of the damage for which we were seeking compensation. Its not the first time insurance has canceled our policy because we filed a claim. After we filed for a claim for damage to our roof from a hurricane, the previous insurance company claimed they were canceling because our neighbor had filed a claim saying we were negligent for having barbed wire fence and that their grandson was injured on it. Turns out that lying dirtbag let his 8-year-old grandson drive an ATV and the kid crashed into the fence on his own property but the guy lied and they used it as an excuse to drop us. The kicker was that the false claim had been made years before and they refused to pay it. So they were just full of it.

Until they passed a law to stop it, health insurance companies here used to drop people as soon as they had to pay for something.

Anyway, I'm still trying to come up with the best solution for this issue.

 

[ZanneJ]

I see that some of my images have stopped working and I can't go back and edit the posts. A summary of the code violations I noted (as mentioned in a previous post).

1. Lavatory had no vent-- it had an ABS vent90 attached to PVC and ran horizontally downward to what looks like an ABS pressure tee directly below the shower-- which is hooked to PVC.

2. The shower appears to be using the lavatory as a vent and does not have a trap. It just drops straight down to the pressure tee (not sure what material-- could be ABS but looks dark green).

3. The toilet drain does have a sanitary tee but bridges to the vent with what appears to be a fernco fitting without the metal clamping rings around. There is no cleanout.

4. The washing machine standpipe does not have a trap and it just drops straight to the main soil pipe without any sort of venting. I couldn't see what fitting it uses to attach to the pipe. (It is also possible that the washing machine pipe doesn't even hook to the plumbing and just drops under the house because I vaguely recall the plumber mentioning that some of the fixtures just drained under the house).

5. The waste pipe for the laundry sink doesn't appear to have a vent and does not appear to connect to the main soil pipe anywhere. Instead it looks like it runs parallel to the east (soil pipe travels west) and terminates via an elbow into the ground. I didn't dig it up to see where it went.

6. I believe that all of the cold water supply lines are PVC when they should be cPVC.

7. I haven't measured, but I suspect that the vent pipe might be of insufficient diameter just from eyeballing it (but I will have to see if I can get a measurement to figure out what size it is).

8. I believe that the main soil pipe is not at the proper slope.

9. I believe the water supply lines are too close to the waste/soil pipes in some places.

10. Existing shower is not up-to-date with scald protection.

Diagram of the current layout (I forgot to add the rough-in plumbing for the old utility sink)

I looked at http://www.co.lincoln.or.us/sites/default/files/fileattachments/planning_amp_development/page/722/plumbingguide.pdf as reference for the fittings.

My septic tank is to the west of the house. My water supply/well system is to the east side, but the water heater is sort of in the middle of the house to the west of this bathroom. There is a kitchen with a double basin sink and garbage disposal on the east wall directly north of this bathroom. Additionally, there are two other full bathrooms to the west (I don't know about the shower/tubs, but I know that the lavatories have S-traps and do not appear to be vented properly-- they *might* attach under the house to auxiliary vents on the exterior of the house).

My main concern right now is figuring out the best way to run all of the pipes. The bathroom is about 7.5' wide (actually a little over 7.8) east to west and 5.1' deep north to south. The southern and eastern walls are exterior walls. The main vent pipe is inside the north wall about 13" from the east wall. I'm not sure if the existing toilet has a 10" or 12" rough-in so I will have to measure.

I found a Sterling tub and surround that can be installed directly to the studs and would come to about 30" x 60". It is one of the few that is approved for use with a window kit.

The ceiling in the room is about 9' high. (I would need at least 60 CFM fan for that space, so I'd probably go with 70CFM). I'm thinking of using a piece of plexiglass with magnets (covered in something so they won't rust) and some sort of trim to cover the window when the shower is in use, but I would have a way of removing it if the window needs to be opened for any reason. I will use 100% silicone caulk liberally.

I'm also planning to build a little box around the existing recessed medicine cabinet and mount it to the wall above the vanity so it will not poke in to the exterior wall.

I'm currently trying to figure out if something I read on a website regarding code about lavatory placement is accurate and if it applies to my Euro-style vanity. I posted in another thread with that question since it pertains to chapter 3 of the IRC. Basically, the website claimed IRC R703.2 stated that freestanding or wall-hung lavatories needed to be 4 inches from the side wall. I was only able to find the listing for 2012 as the most recent version and that particular section did not address lavatories. So, I don't know if it was added afterward or if it was something that was removed or relocated to another section. I searched through the code to find something regarding distance and lavatories and only found the 15" from center rule.

Here is a sketch I did of how I envisioned the south wall of the bathroom to look (probably won't be that much space)

I will have to do another one that is more to scale. I will also have to figure out where my studs and joists are. I also need to figure out if I should tie the toilet and lavatory to the existing vent or if I should just create an auxiliary vent to go out the exterior wall and route around the soffit and above the roof like the ones for the kitchen and other bathrooms.

In this state, a 2-inch drain can only be 6' from the vent. The toilet having a 3" drain can be 10' from the vent. Would I be able to put a 3" sanitary tee above the closet bend and have the vent pipe go up into the southern exterior wall. Then have the lavatory to the west have its vent pipe inside the wall and above the flood level have it travel east to meet up with the toilet's vent with an upside-down tee? Then I could either run the vent pipe through the attic to meet up with the existing one that goes through the roof, or have it just vent out through the exterior wall after going around the soffit?

I know that in colder climates, stuff in the walls can be a big problem, but we very rarely get below freezing temperatures. And since I have the extra inch of space, perhaps I could make the bathroom be only 6' instead of 6' 1" and use that extra space in the exterior wall for insulation.

Then I would need to decide if I should merge the lavatory's waste pipe with the toilet's waste pipe or if I should just run it straight to the main soil pipe.

And I still need to figure out the best locations for cleanouts. Oh yeah, and the best way to tie in the washing machine standpipe since I am going to move the washer and dryer to the east wall and bump them as far north as possible so I can have a wall-mount fold-out surface for folding laundry on the southern wall of the laundry room just to the north of the bathroom.

Sorry if this is disorganized. I'm trying to gather my thoughts and figure out the best way to do this (even though I have two other projects to do ahead of this, I want to have it all worked out).

Things I need to note in a diagram in the future:

*height and size of window

*locations of studs and joists

*possible drain/vent runs labeled so they can be voted upon as most efficient/economical

Here is another sketch- It shows the vent pipe for the lavatory and toilet going out the wall instead of up into the attic.

Additional notes: I will be tearing the subfloor up to replace it, so I don't have to worry too much about adding or removing new holes in the floor when remodeling.

Any thoughts or suggestions (other than burning the house down)?

 

[jdfruit]

Everything considered, I recommend you get a good general contractor to help you with your projects. Make sure you have plans and notes similar to what you posted today and keep them updated with choices made during demolition discovery and subsequent materials/fixture choices.

 

[ZanneJ]

Thanks, jdfruit. One of my biggest problems is finding a good general contractor. Just finding a licensed one in the area is proving to be a challenge. The only ones I knew that were licensed for my area are now deceased.

AngiesList and HomeAdvisor have no listings for my area.

I do plan to consult the local plumber, but I need to find him when he's in a good mood. Sometimes he's really nice and other times he's a total jerk. I think I can figure out most of the stuff to make things easier so I can give the plumber a material list (although I might be able to get the stuff cheaper myself since he buys stuff at a local store that has higher prices than big box stores-- but I think he doesn't get charged sales tax-- its 10% in town and 9% in the town with the big box stores). I'm also going to need my HVAC guy to come out and look at the vent system. He actually said he could do some plumbing and claimed to be grandfathered in for it, but I didn't see his name on the list of licensed plumbers for the area.

I did learn that the 4" rule for lavatory spacing was removed from the IRC, so that is no longer a concern and gives me a teeny bit more wiggle room with fixture placement.