Exit Discharge on Public Way

[eyan50495]

A question came up today at my office about discharging a stair. This is NYS IBC and is a multifamily building. We are trying to determine if your stair can exit onto a public way.

We are trying to determine what the code says not necessarily what is good practice.

There is a road on our property we are creating for garage access. We have a 5' fire lane against the building and stairs from above to the ground floor.

Scenario 1: Stair doors open directly out to fire lane.
Scenario 2: Pulling back stair and creating rated walls/ceiling so stair does not discharge directly into road.

One person in our firm is saying you cannot do either because it's dangerous to someone discharging and getting hit by a car while someone else is saying you can do it as long as you are creating a landing pulled back from the road. See sketch on Scenario 2 below:

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Don't know the NY codes but the IBC does not have anythinbg against a door opening into a fire lane. This might be in the IFC if they use it there.
If the fire lane is a required fire apparatus road the swinging door into it may be a obstruction.

503.4 Obstruction of fire apparatus access roads. Fire
apparatus access roads shall not be obstructed in any manner,
including the parking of vehicles. The minimum widths and
clearances established in Sections 503.2.1 and 503.2.2 shall
be maintained at all times.

 

[eyan50495]

Don't know the NY codes but the IBC does not have anythinbg against a door opening into a fire lane. This might be in the IFC if they use it there.
If the fire lane is a required fire apparatus road the swinging door into it may be a obstruction.

503.4 Obstruction of fire apparatus access roads. Fire
apparatus access roads shall not be obstructed in any manner,
including the parking of vehicles. The minimum widths and
clearances established in Sections 503.2.1 and 503.2.2 shall
be maintained at all times.

On that logic, if the stair was recessed and an outdoor vestibule was provided where the door didn’t swing into the fire apparatus road, it would not be an obstruction.

 

[mtlogcabin]

2018 IBC
3202.2 Encroachments above grade and below 8 feet in height.
Encroachments into the public right-of-way above grade and below 8 feet (2438 mm) in height shall be prohibited except as provided for in Sections 3202.2.1 through 3202.2.3. Doors and windows shall not open or project into the public right-of-way.

 

[eyan50495]

2018 IBC
3202.2 Encroachments above grade and below 8 feet in height.
Encroachments into the public right-of-way above grade and below 8 feet (2438 mm) in height shall be prohibited except as provided for in Sections 3202.2.1 through 3202.2.3. Doors and windows shall not open or project into the public right-of-way.

So I should be able to pull my egress stair door back (say 44” because my stairs are 44” wide) so they do not encroach in the public right of way.

 

[cda]

Sketch is not clear,,,


How do you get a fire truck down a """"We have a 5' fire lane" ??????????????? Or is this for the firefighters to walk on??

But should be no problem with scenario 1.

I take it there is a little set back, so someone does not open the door, and the door gets whacked by a car????

 

[eyan50495]

Sketch is not clear,,,


How do you get a fire truck down a """"We have a 5' fire lane" ??????????????? Or is this for the firefighters to walk on??

But should be no problem with scenario 1.

I take it there is a little set back, so someone does not open the door, and the door gets whacked by a car????

There is actually a 21’ fire apparatus road and a 5’ fire lane in addition to that.
The stair door would be recessed into the building so it didn’t open into the road. In theory, someone would exit the building and be able to stand in that outdoor landing before walking right into traffic.

 

[cda]

There is actually a 21’ fire apparatus road and a 5’ fire lane in addition to that.
The stair door would be recessed into the building so it didn’t open into the road. In theory, someone would exit the building and be able to stand in that outdoor landing before walking right into traffic.

I see no problem

 

[Mr. Inspector]

2018 IBC
3202.2 Encroachments above grade and below 8 feet in height.
Encroachments into the public right-of-way above grade and below 8 feet (2438 mm) in height shall be prohibited except as provided for in Sections 3202.2.1 through 3202.2.3. Doors and windows shall not open or project into the public right-of-way.

It was not established that this was a public right of way. I thought it was a private road and not owned by the government.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Private roads can still be a "public right-of-way" if there is a dedication declaring the road for public use. Our county is full of them because they then do not have to maintain or plow the roads.

[A] PUBLIC WAY. A street, alley or other parcel of land open to the outside air leading to a street, that has been deeded, dedicated or otherwise permanently appropriated to the public for public use and which has a clear width and height of not less than 10 feet (3048 mm).

 

[eyan50495]

It was not established that this was a public right of way. I thought it was a private road and not owned by the government.

This will be a public road created on our site for access to another public road on the other side of the through-lot.

 

[eyan50495]

Also here is a simpler sketch;

 

[cda]

Also here is a simpler sketch;

View attachment 8194

Bless you

 

[cda]

I think your main concern is will someone will get whacked, when they walk out.

I keep thinking it meets code,, getting whacked is not in the code

 

[eyan50495]

I think your main concern is will someone will get whacked, when they walk out.

I keep thinking it meets code,, getting whacked is not in the code

True. Good practice is not in the question.. just whether it meets code!

 

[cda]

True. Good practice is not in the question.. just whether it meets code!

You could alway throw down some yellow hash marks,, to let everyone know there may be something coming

 

[Paul Sweet]

The first 10 or so people coming down the stairs can stand in the recess, but what about everyone following them? What happens if a fire truck pulls up and stops right in front of the exit?

With a sidewalk they at least have somewhere to spread out until there is a break in traffic or to get around the fire truck.

 

[cda]

The first 10 or so people coming down the stairs can stand in the recess, but what about everyone following them? What happens if a fire truck pulls up and stops right in front of the exit?

With a sidewalk they at least have somewhere to spread out until there is a break in traffic or to get around the fire truck.

Must be a good driver to get that close.

When they have 26 feet to play with

 

[mtlogcabin]

I don't think the people will just stand in the recess if there is a fire in the building. They will be walking down the road to get away from the building.
Buy the time a fire truck gets ( 5-6 minutes) to the site the people should be exiting the building and visible to the driver.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Does this mean you can't have a window that opens into a public sidewalk like most buildings have in downtown sections of a town, but you can have a window that doesn't open? Does anyone know the reason for this?

 

[cda]

Does this mean you can't have a window that opens into a public sidewalk like most buildings have in downtown sections of a town, but you can have a window that doesn't open? Does anyone know the reason for this?

Property line???

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Private roads can still be a "public right-of-way" if there is a dedication declaring the road for public use. Our county is full of them because they then do not have to maintain or plow the roads.

[A] PUBLIC WAY. A street, alley or other parcel of land open to the outside air leading to a street, that has been deeded, dedicated or otherwise permanently appropriated to the public for public use and which has a clear width and height of not less than 10 feet (3048 mm).

I don't think "Public right-of-way" is the same as "Public Way". "Public Way" is italics in a few places in Chapter 10 "Means of Egress" but "Public right-of-way" is not in italics in Chapter 32 or defined in the IBC.

Chapter 2 Definitions. An alphabetical listing of all defined terms is located in Chapter 2. Defined
terms that are pertinent to a specific chapter or section are also found in that chapter or section
with a reference back to Chapter 2 for the definition. While a defined term may be listed in one
chapter or another, the meaning is applicable throughout the code.
Codes are technical documents and every word, term and punctuation mark can impact the
meaning of the code text and the intended results. The code often uses terms that have a unique
meaning in the code and the code meaning can differ substantially from the ordinarily understood
meaning of the term as used outside of the code. Where understanding of a term’s definition is
especially key to or necessary for understanding a particular code provision, the term is shown in
italics wherever it appears in the code.
The user of the code should be familiar with and consult this chapter because the definitions are
essential to the correct interpretation of the code. Where a term is not defined, such terms shall
have the ordinarily accepted meaning.

I owned property once on a state road once where I planted bushes in the yard near the road. The state made me take the bushes out because they told me they where in the "Right of Way" and are not allowed. (This frustrated me at the because before I planted the trees by the road I cut down some very large trees that were in the same place.)
So the "Public Right of Way" might not stop at the curb or paved surface and could also include a sidewalk.

 

[mtlogcabin]

So the "Public Right of Way" might not stop at the curb or paved surface and could also include a sidewalk.

Correct and they usually include the sidewalks and boulevards where utilities (Phone, Electrical Gas) are usually constructed
Only windows and doors that are between grade level and 8 ft and open out over the public way are an issue.
Think sight impaired, maintenance of the ROW and utilities buried in that ROW

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Property line???

Property line does not necessarily line up with the "public right-of-way" or "Public Way".