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Failed inspection for having rj45 supported on seismic hanging wire

JesseETG

Registered User
Joined
Jun 3, 2022
Messages
3
Location
Bakersfield
Just had an inspection on a medical building in Sacramento California and the inspector failed us due to having rj45 from 'nlight' lighting control system supported of of Tbar ceiling support wires. Is this a California Electrical Code or National Electrical Code does anyone know? I am aware that electrical systems can not be supported from ceiling support wires. This is relating to rj45.
 
Just had an inspection on a medical building in Sacramento California and the inspector failed us due to having rj45 from 'nlight' lighting control system supported of of Tbar ceiling support wires. Is this a California Electrical Code or National Electrical Code does anyone know? I am aware that electrical systems can not be supported from ceiling support wires. This is relating to rj45.
'supported off of'
 
California Electrical Code:

300.11 Securing and Supporting.
(A) Secured in Place. Raceways, cable assemblies, boxes, cabinets, and fittings shall be securely fastened in place.
(B) Wiring Systems Installed Above Suspended Ceilings.
Support wires that do not provide secure support shall not be permitted as the sole support. Support wires and associated fittings that provide secure support and that are installed in addition to the ceiling grid support wires shall be permitted as the sole support. Where independent support wires are used, they shall be secured at both ends. Cables and raceways shall not be supported by ceiling grids.


The listing for the ceiling grid prevents any other trade from using the grid or grid wires to support much of anything.

Here is some info on T-bar
 
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There should be a rule that if the plan checker or inspector does not list a code provision, that the design professional can bill the city for the time it takes to determine the code section being invoked.
 
The point is that when the building department adopts poor practices it delays completion of the project and increases the cost of construction.
 
The point is that when the building department adopts poor practices it delays completion of the project and increases the cost of construction.
How is it any different from obtaining a building permit, getting most of the way through a project, and ICE shows up for an inspection and tells you it’s not compliant because of A, B, C … And then you discover the plan reviewer missed it, and should not have issued the permit?
 
If the code provision was applicable and I missed it then I will deal with it.

First I have to guess the code provision the plan checker or inspector is referring to. In my experience this is not obvious so I may have to call the plan checker or inspector to understand what was his concern. Figuring out what the concern is can take serval days

Once we have agreement on the code requirement any changes are on the designers but the added costs associated with sorting out what the problem really is are imposed by the building department. Clear communication is the issue.

The reality is that some of the plan checker and inspector comments are not appropriate. Why should the plan checkers and inspectors not be held accountable for their mistakes the same way engineers and architects are?

There is also the concern that some inspectors and plan checkers impose requirements that are not code requirements. This does happen and when it does the design team or contractor either decides to humor the plan checker or inspector or they appeal the comment both of which require time. an may require changes to the documents. Is it cheaper to do what is being requested of to fight it. Just because it is cheaper to accommodate the building department does no mean the comment was valid. Does this give the plan checker the wrong impression?

I have dealt with several state agencies that regulate certain types of buildings and are notorious for their comments. Some local building departments also fall within this category. The reality is that the engineers and architects fees for these projects are higher than when dealing with other building departments but I cannot say that the resulting designs are necessarily better. The conclusion is that some building departments unnecessarily increase the cost of construction but they are not held accountable.
 
My understanding is that when dealing with federal buildings local building codes do not apply and the standards such as the IBC are not adopted as regulations although the federal departments may decide to require the building standards as a matter of policy. But this then becomes a contractual obligation not something required by a law. The local building department would have no jurisdiction.

In this context if NAVFAC were to require something that was not required by the initial contract the impacted parties could submit a change order and be paid for their effort.

My understanding is that a privately owned building constructed on federal land would be subject to the building code as it applies to the county in which it is located.
 
First I have to guess the code provision the plan checker or inspector is referring to.
Knowing the code takes the guesswork out of it.

In my experience this is not obvious
Context is helpful.

Figuring out what the concern is can take serveral days
Focus....focus....focus....look a squirrel....Oh crap

Once we have agreement on the code requirement any changes are on the designers but the added costs associated with sorting out what the problem really is are imposed by the building department.
Ah the age old question of the chicken or the egg. You want child support for the eggs that you dropped?

Why should the plan checkers and inspectors not be held accountable for their mistakes the same way engineers and architects are?
The reality is that we can't shoot any of them.

Just because it is cheaper to accommodate the building department does no mean the comment was valid.
It becomes valid the moment that you agree to comply.

I have dealt with several state agencies that regulate certain types of buildings and are notorious for their comments. Some local building departments also fall within this category. The reality is that the engineers and architects fees for these projects are higher than when dealing with other building departments
Solution found.
 
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As a plans examiner, when code sections apply, I provide them. If I can't find one but I know it is there, I think it is my responsibility to find it. Often I will contact the designer and have a conversation and ask them. It is very, very rare that I don't provide a code section. This saves arguments and wasted time for both them and me. It may take longer to review up front, but that time is made up later. Providing the code sections also has the added benefit of making me look it up, and in doing so I read the section to make sure I word it correctly, and sometimes find subtle differences from what I though I knew that eliminate the comment altogether, or send me on a quest to make sure my comment is valid. Admittedly, I can go down a rabbit hole looking for a code section to validate a concern. There are times when I just find it, and if after too many hours and resources have been spent with no resolution I must assume I am wrong and I move on. Many times I find code sections that prove my initial assertion wrong. BTW, this forum, more than any other resource is the best way I have found to help validate, or invalidate, my concern.
 
As a plans examiner, when code sections apply, I provide them. If I can't find one but I know it is there, I think it is my responsibility to find it. Often I will contact the designer and have a conversation and ask them. It is very, very rare that I don't provide a code section.
It seems a bit odd to call a designer and ask for a code section for a mistake that they made.

I spent a few years doing double duty as plan checker and inspector. Plan checkers have it way better than inspectors. Usually they only have one discipline to deal with because they only know the code for that one discipline. Each job comes with a voluminous checklist, complete with section numbers. The corrections that were not on the checklist weren't that difficult to find.
To be fair I must say that I plan checked residential and commercial tenant improvements. Somebody else did stadiums.

Inspectors do not have a checklist to go with the five disciplines they are tasked with knowing. Inspectors do not work in an air conditioned office and take a coffe break when the mood hits them. Inspectors have contractors barking and baying like sled dogs. Inspectors have 4000 pages with section numbers.
 
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I would request the code section from the inspector. You can do this respectfully by indicating you want to make sure you get it right on the first try.

We generally do not provide code section unless someone asks. We've polled our regular contractors and they all indicated they felt us providing sections was a waste of time.
 
It seems a bit odd to call designer and ask for a code section for a mistake that they made.

I spent a few years doing double duty as plan checker and inspector. Plan checkers have it way better than inspectors. Usually they only have one discipline to deal with because they only know the code for that one discipline. Each job comes with a voluminous checklist, complete with section numbers. The corrections that were not on the checklist weren't that difficult to find.
To be fair I must say that I plan checked residential and commercial tenant improvements. Somebody else did stadiums.

Inspectors do not have a checklist to go with the five disciplines they are tasked with knowing. Inspectors do not work in an air conditioned office and take a coffe break when the mood hits them. Inspectors have contractors barking and baying like sled dogs. Inspectors have 4000 pages with section numbers.
The conversation is more general. Something like "I am trying to understand what you are thinking?" or "what is your code basis for the condition?" The dialogue is the important part, and is very revealing and helpful.

There are difficulties in both jobs. Much of my time is spent making sure the inspector (and contractor) have what they need to be successful. Inspectors certainly do not have the luxury of milling through six code books, researching other resources (like this forum), and in general, thinking about a problem for a day or two. They also don't typically have access to the myriad of supporting documents that are used to verify compliance. So I try to do that for them. Having been an inspector for many years, I tend to be able to anticipate what they will need, I also realize that a good job on my end makes theirs easier, and helps them avoid the failed inspection in some cases.

Plan review is almost entirely a courtesy, it helps avoid lost treasure (time and money) for AHJ's and owner/contractors. If I can identify issues before they are constructed I have added value. But I understand some don't see the value, and more and more they just want plan stampers instead. Those AHJ's don't care about the position it places the inspectors, owners and public in, as long as it gets pushed through, they are willing to play the odds that there will be no consequences.

I spend hours on the front end, and much of that goes unnoticed. Which is exactly the way it should be. It may have taken me two resubmittals and a couple of phone conversations to get the information needed for an inspector to do a 20-minute inspection. But if I didn't it could mean the inspector had to spend an hour looking for the information and arguing with the contractor, and making a return trips while the applicant submits and waits on revisions. Or, the inspector and contractor would never have noticed either way, but since the plans were good, the installation was too, and nobody knows the difference. I think that is the more likely scenario.
 
The plan review is not a courtesy. It is a legal obligation and part of that obligation is to let the impacted parties know what regulations (laws) that are not being complied with. How would you feel if a police officer issued you a citation without letting you know what law you supposedly violated?

While some code provisions may be clear without a reference by the inspector or plan checker to the specific provision this may not always be the case. I have helped to write several changes to the IBC so I might be assumed to know what those code provisions mean. Yet I have heard a code official espousing an interpretation of one of those code sections that was inconsistent with the code provision.

A basic assumption is that I need to respond to all of the plan checkers comments without using the abbreviation "LOL". This is facilitated if I understand the basis for the concern.
 
How would you feel if a police officer issued you a citation without letting you know what law you supposedly violated?
I do not recall a time when the cop didn't ask if I knew why I was pulled over. The best advice is to say no and nothing after that.
 
There should be a rule that if the plan checker or inspector does not list a code provision, that the design professional can bill the city for the time it takes to determine the code section being invoked.
If the inspector does not cite a code section, they are required to provide it if asked. If you really want to slow down an inspector and slow down projects, make she/he cite a specific code for every violation and see how the construction industry slows to a halt.
 
The point is that when the building department adopts poor practices it delays completion of the project and increases the cost of construction.
Do you know what delays the completion of projects and increases costs? Contractors and design professionals that don't keep up on code requirements, submit sub-par plans and perform noncompliant work. I replied to your other post above, if you want to force code inspectors to provide a code section for each and every violation on every inspection every day, then expect major delays in projects. If you request a code section, you should be given it but to allow the contractor to bill the municipality because they don't know the code themselves and the inspector did not provide it is ludacris.
 
If the code provision was applicable and I missed it then I will deal with it.

First I have to guess the code provision the plan checker or inspector is referring to. In my experience this is not obvious so I may have to call the plan checker or inspector to understand what was his concern. Figuring out what the concern is can take serval days

Once we have agreement on the code requirement any changes are on the designers but the added costs associated with sorting out what the problem really is are imposed by the building department. Clear communication is the issue.

The reality is that some of the plan checker and inspector comments are not appropriate. Why should the plan checkers and inspectors not be held accountable for their mistakes the same way engineers and architects are?

There is also the concern that some inspectors and plan checkers impose requirements that are not code requirements. This does happen and when it does the design team or contractor either decides to humor the plan checker or inspector or they appeal the comment both of which require time. an may require changes to the documents. Is it cheaper to do what is being requested of to fight it. Just because it is cheaper to accommodate the building department does no mean the comment was valid. Does this give the plan checker the wrong impression?

I have dealt with several state agencies that regulate certain types of buildings and are notorious for their comments. Some local building departments also fall within this category. The reality is that the engineers and architects fees for these projects are higher than when dealing with other building departments but I cannot say that the resulting designs are necessarily better. The conclusion is that some building departments unnecessarily increase the cost of construction but they are not held accountable.

If you miss it then maybe the plan checker should be charging you to look at the plans again.

The plan checker should be providing code sections for you when they write up plan review deficiencies. This is way different than being in the field with too many inspections and expecting to walk around with a book to cite each and every violation.

Communication is always an issue in both directions.

Inspectors and plans examiners are held accountable by their licenses and to those that they work for. I had a complaint lodged against me in Pennsylvania by an owner that thought I was asking for too much during plan review and was investigated by the State Dept of L&I. It was found that I was doing my job and the plans submitted were grossly deficient. I still had to go through the process to see if I was overstepping my boundaries. You have to right to file complaints too.

If deficiencies are written up that are not code requirements, it is very easy to start a dialogue with the Building Official, the State Agency that licenses them or the powers that be in the hierarchy of the municipality. There is no reason why you can't questions something that is not a code requirement or local ordinance amendment.

If these departments are not held accountable then you are partly to blame for not bringing this to the attention of the powers that be or filing a complaint with the State agency that regulates the licenses of the said inspector, plans examiners, or building officials.
 
The plan review is not a courtesy. It is a legal obligation and part of that obligation is to let the impacted parties know what regulations (laws) that are not being complied with. How would you feel if a police officer issued you a citation without letting you know what law you supposedly violated?

While some code provisions may be clear without a reference by the inspector or plan checker to the specific provision this may not always be the case. I have helped to write several changes to the IBC so I might be assumed to know what those code provisions mean. Yet I have heard a code official espousing an interpretation of one of those code sections that was inconsistent with the code provision.

A basic assumption is that I need to respond to all of the plan checkers comments without using the abbreviation "LOL". This is facilitated if I understand the basis for the concern.
There is no reason why your response letter to the plan review can't be a statement asking for code section for the alleged violations.
 
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