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FHA Guideline vs ANSI A117.1

Jean Tessmer-HI said:
Yikes - its been a while and I have been integrating the information you provided. In your April 5, 2021 you say "Yes, the project has to comply with FHA at a minimum, if it has 3+ units of rental housing or 4+ units of for-sale housing." I could not find the reference to 3+ units defined for rental only. That would be another significant amount of housing as it would apply to work force housing projects that I have seen being built with 3 or less units. I was thinking up to three was not covered by the FHA?
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I made an error in post #10 - - I accidentally quoted California Building Code 11A.
You are correct, FHA only covers 4 or more dwelling units. California (where I live) took FHA a step further and defines "covered multifamily dwellings" as 3 or more apartments. I apologize for quoting our own state code, when you asked about FHA.
 
Yikes - thank you for getting back to me. I just wanted to make sure I was not missing something written in tiny print somewhere in the FHA.
I am relieved. Here is Hawaii we don't have an accessibility code. Hawaii deleted that part of the IBC and amended it to read
Chapter 11 of the International Building Code is amended by deleting Chapter 11 and adding a new Chapter 11 to read as follows:

CHAPTER 11 ACCESSIBILITY

1101 Scope. Buildings or portions of buildings shall be accessible to persons with disabilities in accordance with the following regulations:

1. For construction of buildings or facilities of the State and County Governments, compliance with HRS 103-50, administered by the Disability and Communication Access Board, State of Hawaii.

2. Americans with Disabilities Act, administered and enforced by the U.S. Department of Justice.

3. Fair Housing Act, administered and enforced by the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development.

4. Other pertinent laws relating with disabilities shall be administered and enforced by agencies responsible for their enforcement.

Prior to the issuance of a building permit, the owner (or the owner's representative, professional architect, or engineer) shall submit a statement that all requirements, relating to accessibility for persons with disabilities, shall be complied with.

(Ord. No. 3928, § 3, 2012)
 
That's the first time I've seen a municipality incorporate ADA and FHA by reference.
I note that they did not say "2010 ADA Standards" nor "Fair Housing Act Design Manual".
Because they did not get that specific, it makes sense that they would only ask for a written statement from the owner, rather than conducting a plan check for compliance.

Please note that as a designer, you only have the ability to design to the written, published requirements for the physical environment for the items under your scope of work.
  • You do not have control over whether the owner will discriminate against someone in their housing management policy.
  • You do not have control over a maintenance person putting a wastebasket into required clear floor space for a door.
  • Unless you are doing a post-construction, as-built topographic survey, you cannot guarantee that the contractor correctly provided the code compliant path-of-travel slopes that you had designed on your plans.
  • You do not have control over a future tree root that might push up some paving to a noncompliant slope, or slab edge or crack exceeding 0.25" vertical.
So, before you sign any statement on behalf of the owner, make sure that you appropriately limit the scope of the statement to the physical requirements that are under your control at time of permit issuance.
 
Yikes,
Thank you for the tips all very good. You are correct our building department only requires their form to be signed by the owner or owners authorized agent that the project will comply with the listed accessibility requirements. The form repeats what I show above. Thank you for your consideration and help.
 
Yikes,
How do you do an as-built topographic survey?
I also thought more about your list and have a couple more to add. I hope this fits with limiting scopes.
  • You do not have control over the property management company: repaving, re-striping, repairing, altering portions of the building, or replacing appliances.
  • You do not have control over selection of allowance items negotiated between the owner and the contractor such as but not limited to: hardware, or flooring (with transitions).
  • You do not have control over site settlement
  • You do not have control over physical deterioration of the building facility
Thanks again
 
Jean Tessmer-HI said:
Yikes,
How do you do an as-built topographic survey?
I also thought more about your list and have a couple more to add. I hope this fits with limiting scopes.
  • You do not have control over the property management company: repaving, re-striping, repairing, altering portions of the building, or replacing appliances.
  • You do not have control over selection of allowance items negotiated between the owner and the contractor such as but not limited to: hardware, or flooring (with transitions).
  • You do not have control over site settlement
  • You do not have control over physical deterioration of the building facility
Thanks again
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When we are asked to sign or certify the accessibility, as we are often asked to do on tax credit projects, we state it simply:
"As the architect of record for the above referenced project, I certify that the project as designed complies with the physical design requirements of the California Building Code, the 2010 ADA Standards, the Fair Housing Act Design Manual, and the Uniform Federal Accessibility Standards, including any written/published interpretations from the US Dept. of Justice as time of application for building permit. This certification is limited solely to the designed scope of work shown in the construction documents. It does not include any post-construction modifications to the approved/permitted construction documents that are not under the architect's scope of work."

A statement like that basically excludes everything not explicitly shown on your plans.
 
Jean Tessmer-HI said:
In case you are interested, Andersen windows manufactures a nearly perfect FHA sliding door track channel. Its in their big door brochure. Go to page 18 of the linked pdf. You probably already have this.

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Interesting. In the image below (from page 6 of the brochure), what is the vertical distance between the arrows?
1628612446581.png
 
Yikes - I used AutoCAD to find out as I have the factory drawings for this detail. Sorry I cannot attach a pdf of it but I got 1/8" from the bottom of the door to the finished face of the finished floor as shown. You arrows do not point exactly to the bottom of the door so I made an assumption on that position that you meant to point to the bottom face of the sliding door to the finished floor surface.. I guess you realize if this door is not installed in an interior area and is installed as an exterior door, you would need address additional water proofing or use Andersens lift and slide doors which does provide the wind, rain, and structural performance required by AAMA or WDMA. Andersen also has the hardware but it has to be order through Andersen from CRL (external door pulls). They say the force required to operate the latch is within ADA compliance.
Hope this helps.
 
ADAguy said:
You hire a surveyor.
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To be specific, the surveyor would have to gather elevation points every 2' on center in every direction on paths-of-travel, and they survey accuracy should be within 1/100th of a foot.
Then you would ask the surveyor to identify any slopes that exceed ADA standards, so that you don't have to be the one that does all the math.
That can get very expensive on a large site.
 
Thanks for letting me know. I as hoping there was a 3d camera or Lidar camera you used to determine the finished placed slope, with one click. Here's a bit of history, the original research method of measurement was done on 18" increments (later they found the 24" protractor level was as good) using an 18" protractor vile level which had about a .5 degree accuracy or about 0.9%. It really depended on how many cross hairs they had between each whole degree and having really good eyesight. The Smarttool has 0.3 degrees of accuracy up or down about 0.5% rise per foot about 1/16". I have tried a lot of digital levels none come close. Some of the better manufacturers were up to 1% off. I think because of the accelorometer. I believe 1/100th of one foot is 0.12 inches or 1/8" per foot. An eighth of and in per foot rise = 1%. All the slopes would have needed to be designed and placed at 1% less than the maximum allowed to try to make sure it got built to be a little under the maximums. The precision bias of the Smarttool has been accepted in Federal court as de minimis. The dip stick used for super flat floors uses the Smarttool Pro 3600 to calibrate against. It can read down to 0.15 degrees per foot. It uses a gravity based sensor. Been around since 1987 the collection of the history of this invention is kept at the Smithsonian National Musemum of American History Kenneth E. Behring Center.
 
Can anyone let me know where to find in the Fhag the requirement of 100% USPS cbu's be accessible between 15 and 54 inches. I see that parking for covered units only needs to be at 2%. Is the accessible parking supposed to match the 100% or masybe 100% of the covered units? The only reference I could find is access to mailbox area in the FHAG 2 Table "Basic Components for Accessible and Usable public and Common Use Areas or Facilities page 9505 item 14. mailbox areas. If this is the only reference does it mean the swimming pools and playgrounds will also need lifts and ramps to be 100% accessible?
 
Jean Tessmer-HI said:
I was told by an attorney to forget all the requirements in the 1991 guidelines and the Design Manual. He said the guidelines lowers accessibility i could have problems later on. He said because HUD refers to ANSI A117.1 so when there are words not defined we are supposed to defer to the ANSI Standard and use that to fill in the blanks. Is this what other contractors are finding out? This would be for FHA covered dwellings and FHA tax credit funded housing.

Is there a comparison between FHA Guidelines and the ANSI A117.1 1986?
Which one allowed only one handrail down steps?

Thank you.
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AMNAL but it is my understanding that if you use a safe harbor code (which could be ANSI 2003 or ANSI 2009 you are still complying with the Fair Housing ACT (the law not the guidelines). The law says:
(4) Compliance with the appropriate requirements of the American National Standard for buildings and facilities providing
accessibility and usability for physically handicapped people (commonly cited as "ANSI A117.1") suffices to satisfy the
requirements of paragraph (3)(C)(iii).
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The requirements of paragraph (3)(C)(iii) are:
(C) in connection with the design and construction of covered multifamily dwellings for first occupancy after the
date that is 30 months after the date of enactment of the Fair Housing Amendments Act of 1988, a failure to
design and construct those dwelling in such a manner that--
(i) the public use and common use portions of such dwellings are readily accessible to and usable by
handicapped persons;
(ii) all the doors designed to allow passage into and within all premises within such dwellings are sufficiently
wide to allow passage by handicapped persons in wheelchairs; and
(iii) all premises within such dwellings contain the following features of adaptive design:
(I) an accessible route into and through the dwelling;
(II) light switches, electrical outlets, thermostats, and other environmental controls in accessible
locations;
(III) reinforcements in bathroom walls to allow later installation of grab bars; and
(IV) usable kitchens and bathrooms such that an individual in a wheelchair can maneuver about the
space.
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Theoretically, based on the above any state accessibility law that addresses the points indicated above (surely any version of ANSI or UFAS does this) could be considered a method to comply with the Fair Housing Act. In practice it is best to use one of the ten codes that have actually been declared "safe havens"

I would check which Accessibility Code has been adopted by your state and use that, unless it is not a safe haven, then I would use a code that is.
 
Hi Hughdint - my state and local county have deleted all references to accessibility and amended our code to state that we are required to follow all federal codes.
 
Jean Tessmer-HI said:
Can anyone let me know where to find in the Fhag the requirement of 100% USPS cbu's be accessible between 15 and 54 inches. I see that parking for covered units only needs to be at 2%. Is the accessible parking supposed to match the 100% or masybe 100% of the covered units? The only reference I could find is access to mailbox area in the FHAG 2 Table "Basic Components for Accessible and Usable public and Common Use Areas or Facilities page 9505 item 14. mailbox areas. If this is the only reference does it mean the swimming pools and playgrounds will also need lifts and ramps to be 100% accessible?
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HUD provided an opinion on this issue in 2008 in a letter to the USPS. HUD still enforces this opinion. Note that if your local AHJ uses more recent versions of A117.1 you may be restricted to 15"-48". Yes, that makes your mail room much larger.
I believe HUD's interpretation is not correct and actually makes the mailboxes LESS accessible. They are assuming incorrectly that accessibility is only concerned with people in wheelchairs. The reality is that many more people suffer from mobility impairments related to their lower back which makes bending over to see what's in your mailbox, even at 48" very difficult. 2%, not less than the number of Type A or Accessible units within reach range is certainly a more appropriate interpretation. Certainly the mailbox area must be accessible FHADM, but each mailbox is part of the unit and should follow the Operable Parts requirements for that type of unit in my opinion.

 
Redeyedfly, thank you very much for the Infanger letter. I think there is some misinterpretation by HUD. Item 14 says "mail box area" not mail boxes.
From the text of the table for Requirement 2- item 14. Common-use spaces and facilities (including swimming pools, playgrounds, entrances, rental offices, lobbies, elevators, mailbox areas, lounges, halls and corridors, and the like.)

I guess my question is why aren't swimming pools, playgrounds, all rental offices in the same location, all public restrooms in the same location, also 100% in compliance with 4.1 to 4.30 FHAG or even why aren't all the parking stalls accessible (they are scoped at 2%). I have not gotten any answers yet.

The USPS is not currently following the FHAG they are following their own standard called POSTAL SERVICE 39 CFR Part 254 USPS Standards for Facility Accessibility - STANDARDS FOR FACILITY ACCESSIBILITY Handbook RE-4 March 2005. Their standards also covered the safety of their mail carriers and provided ergonomically safe positions for the mail carrier to deliver mail to interior and exterior cluster boxes. If we don't follow USPS we don't get mail. USPS has said that the CBU's and Licensed manufactured interior USPS boxes are USPS federal property.

Definition of area =
area
[ˈerēə]

NOUN
  1. a region or part of a town, a country, or the world.
    "rural areas of New Jersey" ·
    [more]
    synonyms:
    district · region · zone · sector · quarter · locality · locale · neighborhood·
    [more]
  2. the extent or measurement of a surface or piece of land.
    "the area of a triangle" ·
    [more]
    synonyms:
    expanse · extent · size · scope · compass · measurements · dimensions · proportions · square footage · acreage
  3. a subject or range of activity or interest.
    "the key areas of science"
    synonyms:
    domain · sector · department · province · territory · compartment · line · field · sphere · discipline · realm
  4. a sunken enclosure giving access to the basement of a building.
    "a bicycle padlocked to the area railing"
 
Jean Tessmer-HI said:
I think there is some misinterpretation by HUD. Item 14 says "mail box area" not mail boxes.
From the text of the table for Requirement 2- item 14. Common-use spaces and facilities (including swimming pools, playgrounds, entrances, rental offices, lobbies, elevators, mailbox areas, lounges, halls and corridors, and the like.)
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I agree 100%. HUD got it wrong on both intent and practical effect.

I encourage you to add your complaints to HUD.
 
FYI - the National Home Builders Association NHBA is very aware of how HUD sues small contractors. Sometimes 8 DOJ attorneys to one small contractor.
My recommendation is to use just the essential statutory regulations the FHAG 1991 with the 1994 supplement Q&A and the ANSI A117.1 1986. Write those sources as the limits of your contract. Some of you may not be able to use those sources if your AHJ has adopted a different FHA safe harbor.
 
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