Frustrated fence contractor in business 25 years

[Mark K]

There is a difference between a 3-15/16" dia ball and a 4" ball which may be significant. Also note that Styrofoam deforms more than wood. These tests are sensitive to the stiffness of the components. I would challenge the validity of the test. Try it with a 4"dia ball made of wood or steel.

 

[MASSDRIVER]

I want to know where i can get 4 inch non-deformable spheres, tested, measured and certified by the local county weights and measures department. I may insist an inspector have just such a device to determine exact parameters. I would also ask that a device be used to measure force accurately over a given area and that it to must be tested and certified.

We like the rules, I say we play by them.

Brent.

 

[mjesse]

View attachment 1091

http://gizmodo.com/5021010/roundest-spheres-in-the-world-producedView attachment 1091

/monthly_2014_09/dn14229-1_250.jpg.5d1131dcc0b3929c72be3f428bbc28aa.jpg

 

[ICE]

""""Fence is already installed. Inspector came for the final inspection- took a ball that was 3 15/16" made of Styrofoam."""Does that meet the intent of the code

Not in my book. But I'm having a little bit of trouble swallowing this story hook, line, and sinker.

Did that Styrofoam ball have a sticker from Hobby Lobby that says 3 15/16"? And Styrofoam? With gentle force? Couldn't find a grapefruit? We need a video.

 

[ICE]

I want to know where i can get 4 inch non-deformable spheres, tested, measured and certified by the local county weights and measures department. I may insist an inspector have just such a device to determine exact parameters. I would also ask that a device be used to measure force accurately over a given area and that it to must be tested and certified. We like the rules, I say we play by them.

Brent.

Well Brent I'm pretty sure that you are a guy that could wreck a bowling ball so it will be a no go on that non-deformable sphere.

 

[MASSDRIVER]

View attachment 2446http://gizmodo.com/5021010/roundest-spheres-in-the-world-produced

Funny, I was thinking about the same artifact.

Brent

 

[MASSDRIVER]

Frustrated fence contractor in business 25 years

My official state registered bowling-ball-deformation device.

Brent

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tbz]

This has been an issue for me once. It was a guard around an atrium at several floor levels. The posts were 2" re-bar and there was cable strung between them. I use a tape measure and fingers. If I push on the cable and it moves, there may be a problem. It has been a while since the cable guard but as I recall, they had to double up the number of cables. So what's that got to do with this post about an aluminum guard. Shirley not a lot.

You say there are 3/4" pickets. 3/4"x what? Give us a picture. You know, there is usually more to the story. You've been building fences for 25 years....... certainly you have 4" balls. You did say that the inspector is gentle so if you pull out your set he probably won"t bust your balls.

ICE look at the OP's response, at the bottom he gave you 4 or 5 manufactures of which he is and has been using,(Dan if you can what manufacture and model fence panel did you use?) if you go to any of the listed manufactures websites you will see hundreds of pictures of what he is talking about as practically every fence panel section is mass produced and specified as 3-7/8" spacing between vertical pickets. He is not installing a custom fabricated product, 95% of the fence companies make nothing, they buy a mass produced product that the manufacture has built to compliance and install it.

But here are a few links:

http://www.ameristarfence.com/

http://www.jerith.com/

Not really more to a story, I have personally run in to this more than a few times, the difference is ICE you are the inspector thus how many times to you install something and have to have it inspected by someone?

As a fabricator and installation company we work all over, last year we worked on projects that were in approximately 185 different AHJ with 185 different inspectors with 185 different views.

You work in one, your view. The main difference I have over Dan is we custom build each of our products and i attend ICC code hearings and stay up on the codes because we manufacture, as basically just an installation company, Dan relies on that the multi million dollar manufactures he buys his product from do that for him, he just orders product "A" that shows in the specs it complies with 4" sphere rule, height and ground spacing.

The odd thing here that I just can't seem to grab is that in the concrete jungle you have not seem to run into a product that has about 70% of the commercial fencing market for the past 15 years.

I think you are just getting hung up of Jeff's use of colorful directional wording.

Don't take a side comment on the presented description, I think why Jeff got so colorful is that with the mass produced aluminum fence panels these manufactures products are produced to maximum specifications, thus 3-7/8" and are approved for use by certified testing labs that they meet the code specifications. The describe presented fact by the OP is the use of a none 4" sphere and force, if that is not the true case then everyone here will agree, if the fence is not to spec it fails.

But in the OP's response he notes he showed the inspector other mass produced fence panels that are installed in millions of installations around the country and this inspector will fail all of them because he can push a less than 4" foam sphere through all of them.

I will have to say the odds that the OP is off based with posting this type of specific information compared against the odd's that one inspector is failing manufactured fence panels, I would have to say the OP is more than likely in the right than the inspector. But I am 1,300 miles from South florida and I am guessing you are about 2 time plus that from SoCal.

I would have to say the fact that the inspector has gone this far is getting well beyond busting balls... The tape measure reads 3-7/8" and the sphere stays put in place, push sphere between verticals and stays in place without pressure.

So a smaller than 4" sphere stays in place, let me think harder,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,common ICE I believe if faced with the same situation you would have gone green and been on to the next headache.....

 

[rshuey]

My official state registered bowling-ball-deformation device.

Brent

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have 2 Spikes Tactical setups. Very nice.

 

[tbz]

Note that for mesh barriers they have to be restrained not more than 1 inch above the concrete or deck but still have to meet the 4 inch sphere shall not pass requirement and shall be constructed such that they cannot be lifted higher than 4 inches--does not give a lifting force, one handed pull, 2 handed pull or forklift fork lift?Another code quirk--I can take this structure full of water delete the chemicals, add koi and floating plants, post "no swimming" and remove the barrier completely.

The code does need more work.

Good post Frank,

and the wording manufactures spec's is presented with ASTM specs, which I am going to go out on a fence and say the manufactured installed products meet spec.

The bungee cord example is great, I like it, but what you don't seem to grasp is, you now fail it, you say it does not meet the intent of the code, I can pass a 4" sphere under force, were in the code is the specs for that test on force on the bungee cords?

What amount of force is or not allowed?

IF you go to the guard section it's a 50ld load on a 1 sqft area thus, doing that test here on bungee cords would not pass, but I am sure if the inspector did that with the fence panels and then rolled a 4" sphere not less than 4" sphere on the panels it would not fall through.

But how does one justify a guard infill requirement on aproduct that can't pass the top of guard requirement of 50lb per l/ft?

Pulling something from the sky because you feel it works as a catch all creates a whole other issue.

Back to the simple question - what amount of load does the code require for pass or fail on the sphere?

 

[tbz]

My official state registered bowling-ball-deformation device.

Brent

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Brent,

Nice peace setup, .223? but I believe not on base with the topic.

 

[steveray]

"Back to the simple question - what amount of load does the CODE require for pass or fail on the sphere?".....None...

"Loads and forces for occupancies or uses not covered in this chapter shall be subject to the approval of the building official."....I require something reasonable....The OP inspector seems to be unreasonable....

Brent....How did I know you would be a big Steely Dan fan.....

 

[danlawrence]

305.2.2 Openings.

Openings in the barrier shall not allow passage of a 4 inch (102 mm) diameter sphere.

This is the code our inspector was referring while quoting the words " to prevent from squeezing through".

Our spacings were all measured with a digital caliper at "less than 4".

While he added that there are NO rules for delection, or pounds of pressure causing the deflection to allow the passage of the 4" sphere.

He squeezed each of the different samples we had on the truck , and commented - yeah I'd pass this one , or no I don't think I'd pass that one .

Based on "his" opinion of the strength of that product.

 

[cda]

get the inspector's boss to come look at it.

"""He squeezed each of the different samples we had on the truck , and commented - yeah I'd pass this one , or no I don't think I'd pass that one .

Based on "his" opinion of the strength of that product. """"

sphere or fence??????

 

[ICE]

ICE look at the OP's response, at the bottom he gave you 4 or 5 manufactures of which he is and has been using.

Fences and guards serve different purposes. You can have your cray paper fence but not if it is a guard.

Not really more to a story, I have personally run in to this more than a few times, the difference is ICE you are the inspector thus how many times to you install something and have to have it inspected by someone?

This has nothing to do with the subject at hand. I spent 25 years in construction before becoming an inspector but alas I must fess up....not more than a few fences.

As a fabricator and installation company we work all over, last year we worked on projects that were in approximately 185 different AHJ with 185 different inspectors with 185 different views.You work in one, your view.

185 different views on how to inspect a fence? My view is the one I was given by the jurisdiction and when it comes to fences....well there's not a lot to think about.

The odd thing here that I just can't seem to grab is that in the concrete jungle you have not seem to run into a product that has about 70% of the commercial fencing market for the past 15 years.

A fence under 6' tall is exempt from permit....for the last five years I have done 90% residential.

I think you are just getting hung up of Jeff's use of colorful directional wording.

That's Jeff's problem, not mine.

But in the OP's response he notes he showed the inspector other mass produced fence panels that are installed in millions of installations around the country and this inspector will fail all of them because he can push a less than 4" foam sphere through all of them.

Says the contractor. Again, it is a guard not a fence.

I will have to say the odds that the OP is off based with posting this type of specific information compared against the odd's that one inspector is failing manufactured fence panels, I would have to say the OP is more than likely in the right than the inspector.

That's okay with me. I'll stand with the inspector until I have all of the story..see the picture/video and hear from the inspector. This is typical of the worst way to investigate a situation....it is completly onesided.

So a smaller than 4" sphere stays in place, let me think harder,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,common ICE I believe if faced with the same situation you would have gone green and been on to the next headache.....

Assuming facts not presented.

 

[jar546]

When did you turn into such a sour pussy? You got some nerve to be calling out an inspector as a moron based on a contractors say so. For all you know that inspector has never made a mistake and you don't have a clue if he did now.....

I will find a class for you on reading and comprehension. Oh wait. Here: http://www.understandmore.com/i-adults.htm

[h=2]1if[/h] conjunction \ˈif, əf\—used to talk about the result or effect of something that may happen or be true

—used to discuss the imaginary result or effect of something that did not happen or that is or was not true

—used to say that something must happen before another thing can happen

 

[ICE]

I will find a class for you on reading and comprehension. Oh wait. Here: http://www.understandmore.com/i-adults.htm [h=2]1if[/h] conjunction \ˈif, əf\—used to talk about the result or effect of something that may happen or be true

—used to discuss the imaginary result or effect of something that did not happen or that is or was not true

—used to say that something must happen before another thing can happen

As apologies go, that falls short.....or did I miss something?

 

[tbz]

Fences and guards serve different purposes. You can have your cray paper fence but not if it is a guard.This has nothing to do with the subject at hand. I spent 25 years in construction before becoming an inspector but alas I must fess up....not more than a few fences.

185 different views on how to inspect a fence? My view is the one I was given by the jurisdiction and when it comes to fences....well there's not a lot to think about.

A fence under 6' tall is exempt from permit....for the last five years I have done 90% residential.

That's Jeff's problem, not mine.

Says the contractor. Again, it is a guard not a fence.

That's okay with me. I'll stand with the inspector until I have all of the story..see the picture/video and hear from the inspector. This is typical of the worst way to investigate a situation....it is completly onesided.

Assuming facts not presented.

Ice not sure what your reading the op spells out in op commercial fence, 4" sphere for a pool barrier, ah it's for a pool, guard has nothing to do with any of it.

Fence noted as 6 ft and fence to meet pool code barrier requirements fails for sphere passing through under force, to which sphere less than 4", if the op is wrong about what he post, then da it would fail.

But to say I don,t believe the question being posted so till I see the video reply I side with the inspector, I guess you just can,t answer a question unless it has a picture attached.

As for not that many ways to interp a fence installation, my be not a 185 different views on a fence but more than 50 on different parts of an installation and materials.

Not sure in SoCal but in NJ I am not sure you can install an exterior pool without a fence here in some manner and I venture a guess in Florida you need a barrier enclosure around pools in some manner. And you need a permit.

 

[mark handler]

Not sure in SoCal but in NJ I am not sure you can install an exterior pool without a fence here in some manner and I venture a guess in Florida you need a barrier enclosure around pools in some manner. And you need a permit.

CA does have a Pool Code and it is a part of the BA Building Code. And they require the fencing...

 

[fireguy]

What is the purpose of the 4" rule? Are you trying to protect soft round balls? Or small children with 4" heads, or other body parts with 4" spheres?

 

[steveray]

What is the purpose of the 4" rule? Are you trying to protect soft round balls? Or small children with 4" heads, or other body parts with 4" spheres?

If you have multiple 4" spheres, you may want to get that checked......

 

[ICE]

What is the purpose of the 4" rule? Are you trying to protect soft round balls? Or small children with 4" heads, or other body parts with 4" spheres?

It is to keep small children away from the pool. By the time a baby can crawl, the head is larger than 4".

 

[ICE]

Ice not sure what your reading the op spells out in op commercial fence, 4" sphere for a pool barrier, ah it's for a pool, guard has nothing to do with any of it.

You are right about that. It isn't a guard. It isn't a fence either. We call it a barrier. A barrier can be a fence but not all fences are barriers.

I guess you just can,t answer a question unless it has a picture attached.

Right again....in this particular case.

 

[Frank]

Good post Frank,IF you go to the guard section it's a 50ld load on a 1 sqft area thus, doing that test here on bungee cords would not pass, but I am sure if the inspector did that with the fence panels and then rolled a 4" sphere not less than 4" sphere on the panels it would not fall through.

Taking your roll the 4.00 inch sphere on a horizontal sample and it does not fall through test--what kind of sphere? Hollow Lithium would not weigh much at all , an Iron cannonball, solid Lead or solid depleted Uranium? You have no more quantified it than the 50# test based on the guard section. The previously quoted section in the IBC lets the building official set loads where the code does not specify. A force is needed to make it pass--with zero force the sphere will float beside the barrier and will no pass through 4 ft wide spacing.