Frustrated fence contractor in business 25 years

[steveray]

The 50# is over a square foot.....Not a 4" sphere....

 

[cda]

Do you take it the fence is installed or this is a plan review comment??

 

[tbz]

I think I see a code change coming. This can also be an issue with cable type guards and barbed wire fences where one stepping on as if to climb, opens it for the other to crawl through. How flexible are the pickets? Are we talking 5 pounds push on the ball or 500? Proposed new language305.2.2 Openings.

Openings in the barrier shall not allow passage of a 4 inch (102 mm) diameter sphere with not more than 50 pounds of force applied in any direction.

The 50 pounds being in consistent with the guard strength requirement in the IBC

1607.8.1.2 Intermediate rails.

Intermediate rails (all those except the handrail), balusters and panel fillers shall be designed to resist a concentrated load of 50 pounds (0.22 kN) in accordance with Section 4.5.1 of ASCE 7.

First lets start with a simple notation or should I say question.

Were in the code is there load requirements for pool barriers?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

The loads that everyone seem to apply are for guards!!!!!!!!!!! Pool barriers have no load requirements and are only required to be engineered so they don't fall over when over 6ft.

Unless I am missing something.

Next, as to apply a force on the sphere, it seems people are forgetting that we allow 6" spheres it's about area not 4".

 

[mjesse]

First lets start with a simple notation or should I say question.Were in the code is there load requirements for pool barriers?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

The loads that everyone seem to apply are for guards!!!!!!!!!!! Pool barriers have no load requirements and are only required to be engineered so they don't fall over when over 6ft.

Unless I am missing something.

Next, as to apply a force on the sphere, it seems people are forgetting that we allow 6" spheres it's about area not 4".

I was with you 'til the last sentence. IRC Appdx. G105 is 4" sphere.

 

[tbz]

I was with you 'til the last sentence. IRC Appdx. G105 is 4" sphere.

Sorry Mjesse,

Problem in shop had to run and hit send before I finished.

As stated in other posts above baluster or proper term infill spreading is covered for guards and the code requires that a uniform area load be applied to the guards infill and if that infill distorts and allows a 4" sphere to freely pass through then it does not pass.

Why people feel that the force should be or as being noted has to be applied to the sphere is beyond me.

As I started to say above the 4" sphere is not the issue its the mass area that can open that is a problem, as noted by allowing 6" spheres on stair treads.

But to stay on target, pool barriers are not required to meet any loads on the infill, they can be cray paper!, those that were not present that is the same example that I used when I wrote in the load infill requirement for the 2001sup/2003 IRC, because if you open your 2000 IRC you will see there was no loads required for the infill in the IRC.

Just because one might not like the minimum requirement does not mean they have the right to over step and require a requirement because they feel so.

The fact of the matter is from my first post to the OP posting I am looking to clarify my 2 points.

1.) inspector is only failing because the sphere passes through under force, IE: LOAD

2.) inspector agrees that absent the load force barrier measures less than 4"

So IF OP information is correct the inspector is not correct with force on sphere.

 

[tbz]

The key is how ridged are the members are

Frank there is no key to requiring rigid in the code for pool barriers.

I have yelled about it for years, it was suppose to be taken care of in the IIC pool code, I have not really read through it to see if it was covered, no time since no AHJ I work in has informed me that they are looking to add it and are looking for public comments. When it shows up I will.

But pool barriers have no load requirements in the model codes prior to 2015 that I am aware of, could be wrong on a local level, but haven't seen anything yet.

 

[mjesse]

1.) inspector is only failing because the sphere passes through under force, IE: LOAD2.) inspector agrees that absent the load force barrier measures less than 4"

So IF OP information is correct the inspector is not correct with force on sphere.

Agreed.

Now where did the OP go?

 

[tbz]

Rarely do I see a fence that's made of aluminum. So the inspector can fit the sphere through with force. How much force? Could a child generate that much force? Having not seen the test, I will defer to the inspector.

ICE,

Were in the code and I will even defer to the CAL version you enforce daily, were in the code does it spell out the force test, I know were it spells out to measure the width for compliance and that you can use a sphere to measure the opening, because the sphere is being used as a measurement device.

But were does it say apply a load to the 4" sphere and see if you can force it through? Also what load must it meet and what testing equipment are you to use and what certification do you need to operate this device and how often do you need to calibrate it?

The OP question was simple and direct in 25 years he has never seen an inspector fail a pool barrier for picket spreading under force to a 4 inch sphere.

He is questioning if this is a correct method of testing and is that requirement in the code? Not how much force, but if one is required?

So in your AHJ how much force do you apply to the 4" sphere when inspecting and how do you measure and record it and under what code section does that force pass or fail?

Also if the OP is correct with their posting that the pickets when measured are 3-7/8" maximum and that only under force will the sphere spread the pickets a part enough for it to be forced through and when applying that force either the sphere or barrier surfaces are being deformed to allow passage, how do you see this?

I will concede if the pickets are loose and when you push the loose pickets away from each other till they hit hard stops and then opening is 4" it fails, but that is not what I am reading here, hard stop at 3-7/8" and deformation force required to pass.

Tom

 

[tbz]

Agreed.Now where did the OP go?

I have been wondering the same thing - ???

I have been debating if Jeff scared them off...............

 

[tmurray]

First lets start with a simple notation or should I say question.Were in the code is there load requirements for pool barriers?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

The loads that everyone seem to apply are for guards!!!!!!!!!!! Pool barriers have no load requirements and are only required to be engineered so they don't fall over when over 6ft.

Unless I am missing something.

Next, as to apply a force on the sphere, it seems people are forgetting that we allow 6" spheres it's about area not 4".

Frank was proposing new code language to cap the maximum amount of force one could apply to a sphere used to test the spacing. Basically, if more than the prescribed amount of force was used it is irrelevant if the sphere passes. As I posted earlier, with enough force you can get a 4" sphere to pass through any sized hole.

 

[cda]

RE: FENCE POOL CODE INTERPRETATIONS – 4” SPHERETREASURE COAST, FLORIDA

A county inspector has failed an aluminum pool fence with 3 7/8” spacing between pickets. The fence is a commercial grade, 6’ high with (3) horizontals. (2) at the top and (1) at the bottom with ¾” pickets.

The code he is calling us out on is that the 4” sphere can be pushed (forced) through. The code reads “openings in barrier shall not allow passage of a 4” diameter sphere”.

I have installed thousands of fences over the last 25 years in business and have never had this issue.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you.

Is this already installed or is this plan review comment???

If installed can you go thorugh how the inspector did the four inch sphere test???

 

[steveray]

Just for the record....I don't know anyone that would allow tissue paper for a pool guard.....Even if there are no specifics for requirements....

 

[Frank]

Frank there is no key to requiring rigid in the code for pool barriers.I have yelled about it for years, it was suppose to be taken care of in the IIC pool code, I have not really read through it to see if it was covered, no time since no AHJ I work in has informed me that they are looking to add it and are looking for public comments. When it shows up I will.

But pool barriers have no load requirements in the model codes prior to 2015 that I am aware of, could be wrong on a local level, but haven't seen anything yet.

Going to the 2012 IBC

" 1604.2 Strength.

Buildings and other structures, and parts thereof, shall be designed and constructed to support safely the factored loads in load combinations defined in this code without exceeding the appropriate strength limit states for the materials of construction. Alternatively, buildings and other structures, and parts thereof, shall be designed and constructed to support safely the nominal loads in load combinations defined in this code without exceeding the appropriate specified allowable stresses for the materials of construction.

Loads and forces for occupancies or uses not covered in this chapter shall be subject to the approval of the building official.

1604.4 Analysis.

Load effects on structural members and their connections shall be determined by methods of structural analysis that take into account equilibrium, general stability, geometric compatibility and both short- and long-term material properties.

Members that tend to accumulate residual deformations under repeated service loads shall have included in their analysis the added eccentricities expected to occur during their service life.

Any system or method of construction to be used shall be based on a rational analysis in accordance with well-established principles of mechanics. Such analysis shall result in a system that provides a complete load path capable of transferring loads from their point of origin to the load-resisting elements.

...

Every structure shall be designed to resist the overturning effects caused by the lateral forces specified in this chapter. See Section 1609 for wind loads, Section 1610 for lateral soil loads and Section 1613 for earthquake loads.

1607.2 Loads not specified.

For occupancies or uses not designated in Table 1607.1, the live load shall be determined in accordance with a method approved by the building official. "

If the loading is not specified it does not go to zero. While a pool barrier is not included in the definition of a guard that is what is most resembles in function and therefore the guard requirements are appropriate for structural loading of pool barriers.

 

[danlawrence]

Fence is already installed. Inspector came for the final inspection- took a ball that was 3 15/16" made of Styrofoam.

Gently pushed it through the picket space, but could still hold the ball against the space without it going through if he wanted to.

Only when he pushed it through with minor effort, he said it will not pass code because code reads "a space that cannot be squeezed through"

We had a few similar products on the truck that he could do the same to, but when we turned the panels flat - the ball would not pass through any one of the spaces, unless he forced it. These panels were residential grade with 5/8" picket X 4' high, and he said "he would definitely fail ".

For references to products we mentioned - Ideal Aluminum , Jerrith Aluminum, Ameristar, Delgard, Elite. These are products we have used for years.

 

[Frank]

Fence is already installed. Inspector came for the final inspection- took a ball that was 3 15/16" made of Styrofoam.Gently pushed it through the picket space, but could still hold the ball against the space without it going through if he wanted to.

Only when he pushed it through with minor effort, he said it will not pass code because code reads "a space that cannot be squeezed through"

We had a few similar products on the truck that he could do the same to, but when we turned the panels flat - the ball would not pass through any one of the spaces, unless he forced it. These panels were residential grade with 5/8" picket X 4' high, and he said "he would definitely fail ".

For references to products we mentioned - Ideal Aluminum , Jerrith Aluminum, Ameristar, Delgard, Elite. These are products we have used for years.

Styrofoam ball is wrong test tool, one is 1/16" small and two it is quite deformable on its own often used as padding on the inside of vehicles for impact mitigation.

 

[mjesse]

Fence is already installed. Inspector came for the final inspection- took a ball that was 3 15/16" made of Styrofoam.Gently pushed it through the picket space, but could still hold the ball against the space without it going through if he wanted to.

Only when he pushed it through with minor effort, he said it will not pass code because code reads "a space that cannot be squeezed through"

We had a few similar products on the truck that he could do the same to, but when we turned the panels flat - the ball would not pass through any one of the spaces, unless he forced it. These panels were residential grade with 5/8" picket X 4' high, and he said "he would definitely fail ".

For references to products we mentioned - Ideal Aluminum , Jerrith Aluminum, Ameristar, Delgard, Elite. These are products we have used for years.

Consensus here seems to disagree with your local inspector.

As suggested previously, it's time to go above his head and talk to whomever is in charge at the Permit office.

Keep us posted!

 

[tbz]

Going to the 2012 IBC" 1604.2 Strength.

Buildings and other structures, and parts thereof, shall be designed and constructed to support safely the factored loads in load combinations defined in this code without exceeding the appropriate strength limit states for the materials of construction. Alternatively, buildings and other structures, and parts thereof, shall be designed and constructed to support safely the nominal loads in load combinations defined in this code without exceeding the appropriate specified allowable stresses for the materials of construction.

Loads and forces for occupancies or uses not covered in this chapter shall be subject to the approval of the building official.

1604.4 Analysis.

Load effects on structural members and their connections shall be determined by methods of structural analysis that take into account equilibrium, general stability, geometric compatibility and both short- and long-term material properties.

Members that tend to accumulate residual deformations under repeated service loads shall have included in their analysis the added eccentricities expected to occur during their service life.

Any system or method of construction to be used shall be based on a rational analysis in accordance with well-established principles of mechanics. Such analysis shall result in a system that provides a complete load path capable of transferring loads from their point of origin to the load-resisting elements.

...

Every structure shall be designed to resist the overturning effects caused by the lateral forces specified in this chapter. See Section 1609 for wind loads, Section 1610 for lateral soil loads and Section 1613 for earthquake loads.

1607.2 Loads not specified.

For occupancies or uses not designated in Table 1607.1, the live load shall be determined in accordance with a method approved by the building official. "

If the loading is not specified it does not go to zero. While a pool barrier is not included in the definition of a guard that is what is most resembles in function and therefore the guard requirements are appropriate for structural loading of pool barriers.

Frank you are off with your quoting for the fence and the lack no loads you can apply guard loads. Been over turned in many a AHJ because the vast majority of fence does not meet those loading requirements nor are they even designed to meet loads near them.

The loads you note in the structural are for safety from coming down, blowing over and staying in place without human interaction.

If you are going to use that reasoning then you must fail pretty much the majority of composite and light gauge aluminum fence you inspect because none of them will pass 50 lbs per/l/ft I have tested the lot of them and under the force gauge they deform outward and break form.

If 1-1/2" sch40 pipe rail needs to be set close to 48" centerlines for support on guards and loaded at 42" high why would you even think 0.090" 2" aluminum light wall fence at 6ft post spacings and 72" high would even come close to passing those load requirements, not to even mention 50lbs on 1sqft area pulled to the engineering standard of 2.5 times load.

The code defers to manufacture specs and manufacture specs on prefabricated fence is built to ASTM standards with loads that the code has not adopted in the past, the newer 2015 I believe brought them in to the pool code, but I can't confirm that at this time.

But lack of applying guard loads has been overturned many of times.

 

[tbz]

Only when he pushed it through with minor effort, he said it will not pass code because code reads "a space that cannot be squeezed through"

thanks for the additional information Dan, are you able to provide us with the exact code section wording. I have never seen a sphere requirement code wording that says "a space that cannot be squeezed through" that is about the worst code language there can be, because all spaces can be squeezed through.

 

[Mark K]

There is a concept in law that states that if there is any ambiguity in the laws or regulations that the person they are being applied to gets to select the interpretation that he prefers. I believe that this also applies to the building codes.

 

[cda]

1.

doubtfulness or uncertainty of meaning or intention:

to speak with ambiguity; an ambiguity of manner.

2.

an unclear, indefinite, or equivocal word, expression, meaning, etc.:

a contract free of ambiguities; the ambiguities of modern poetry.

1. Doubtfulness or uncertainty as regards interpretation: "leading a life of alleged moral ambiguity" (Anatole Broyard).

2. Something of doubtful meaning: a poem full of ambiguities.

 

[Frank]

What I am saying is zero force is not realistic. Think of barrier of bungie cords spaced 3-1/2" apart vertically between rails 4 ft apart--no way this passes as it does not meet the intent of keeping a 4 inch sphere out. The 50 plf is commercial only. The pool barrier is more than just a fence it is a barrier to prevent access. Is the particular fence used certified by the manufacturer for use as a pool barrier?

From 2012 pool and spa code

SECTION 305 BARRIER REQUIREMENTS

305.1 General.

The provisions of this section shall apply to the design of barriers for aquatic vessels. These design controls are intended to provide protection against the potential drowning and near drowning by restricting access to such vessels. These requirements provide an integrated level of protection against potential drowning through the use of physical barriers and warning devices.

Exceptions:

1. Spas and hot tubs with a lockable safety cover that complies with ASTM F 1346.

2. Swimming pools with a powered safety cover that complies with ASTM F 1346.

305.2 Outdoor swimming pools and spas.

All outdoor aquatic vessels and indoor swimming pools shall be surrounded by a barrier that complies with Sections 305.2.1 through 305.7.

305.2.1 Barrier height and clearances.

Barrier heights and clearances shall be in accordance with all of the following:

1. The top of the barrier shall be not less than 48 inches (1219 mm) above grade where measured on the side of the barrier that faces away from the aquatic vessel. Such height shall exist around the entire perimeter of the vessel and for a distance of 3 feet (914 mm) where measured horizontally from the required barrier.

2. The vertical clearance between grade and the bottom of the barrier shall not exceed 2 inches (51 mm) for grade surfaces that are not solid, such as grass or gravel, where measured on the side of the barrier that faces away from the vessel.

3. The vertical clearance between a surface below the barrier to a solid surface, such as concrete, and the bottom of the required barrier shall not exceed 4 inches (102 mm) where measured on the side of the required barrier that faces away from the vessel.

4. Where the top of the vessel structure is above grade, the barrier shall be installed on grade or shall be mounted on top of the vessel structure. Where the barrier is mounted on the top of the vessel, the vertical clearance between the top of the vessel and the bottom of the barrier shall not exceed 4 inches (102 mm).

305.2.2 Openings.

Openings in the barrier shall not allow passage of a 4 inch (102 mm) diameter sphere.

305.2.3 Solid barrier surfaces.

Solid barriers that do not have openings shall not contain indentations or protrusions that form handholds and footholds, except for normal construction tolerances and tooled masonry joints.

305.2.4 Mesh restraining barrier/fence.

Mesh fences, other than chain link fences in accordance with Section 305.2.7, shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions and shall comply with the following:

1. The bottom of the mesh restraining fence shall be not more than 1 inch (25 mm) above the deck or installed surface or grade.

2. The maximum vertical clearance from the bottom of the mesh fence and the solid surface shall not permit the fence to be lifted more than 4 inches (102 mm) from grade or decking.

3. The fence shall be designed and constructed so that it does not allow passage of a 4-inch (102 mm) sphere under any mesh panel. The maximum vertical clearance from the bottom of the mesh fence and the solid surface shall not be more than 4 inches (102 mm) from grade or decking.

4. An attachment device shall attach each barrier section at a height not lower than 45 inches (1143 mm) above grade. Common attachment devices include, but are not limited to, devices that provide the security equal to or greater than that of a hook-and-eye-type latch incorporating a spring-actuated retaining lever such as a safety gate hook.

5. Where a hinged gate is used with a mesh barrier, the gate shall comply with Section 305.3.

6. Patio deck sleeves such as vertical post receptacles which are placed inside the patio surface shall be of a nonconductive material.

7. Mesh fences shall not be used on top of on ground residential pools.

305.2.5 Closely spaced horizontal members.

Where the barrier is composed of horizontal and vertical members and the distance between the tops of the horizontal members is less than 45 inches (1143 mm), the horizontal members shall be located on the aquatic vessel side of the fence. Spacing between vertical members shall not exceed 1.75 inches (44 mm) in width. Where there are decorative cutouts within vertical members, spacing within the cutouts shall not exceed 1.75 inches (44 mm) in width.

305.2.6 Widely spaced horizontal members.

Where the barrier is composed of horizontal and vertical members and the distance between the tops of the horizontal members is 45 inches (1143 mm) or more, spacing between vertical members shall not exceed 4 inches (102 mm). Where there are decorative cutouts within vertical members, spacing within the cutouts shall not exceed 1.75 inches (44 mm) in width.

305.2.7 Chain link dimensions.

The maximum opening formed by a chain link fence shall be not more than 1.75 inches (44 mm). Where the fence is provided with slats fastened at the top and bottom which reduces the openings, such openings shall be not more than 1.75 inches (44 mm).

305.2.8 Diagonal members.

Where the barrier is composed of diagonal members, the maximum opening formed by the diagonal members shall be not more than 1.75 inches (44 mm). The angle of diagonal members shall not be greater than 45 degrees (0.79 rad) from vertical.

305.2.9 Clear zone.

There shall be a clear zone of not less than 36 inches (914 mm) around the exterior of the barrier and around any permanent structures or equipment such as pumps, filters and heaters that can be used to climb the barrier.

305.2.10 Poolside barrier setbacks.

The aquatic vessel side of the required barrier shall be not less than 20 inches (508 mm) from the water’s edge.

305.3 Gates.

Access gates shall comply with the requirements of Sections 305.3.1 through 305.3.3 and shall be equipped to accommodate a locking device. Pedestrian access gates shall open outward away from the vessel and shall be self-closing and have a self-latching device.

305.3.1 Utility or service gates.

Gates not intended for pedestrian use, such as utility or service gates, shall remain locked when not in use.

305.3.2 Double or multiple gates.

Double gates or multiple gates shall have at least one leaf secured in place and the adjacent leaf shall be secured with a self-latching device. The gate and barrier shall not have openings larger than 1/2 inch (12.7 mm) within 18 inches (457 mm) of the latch release mechanism. The self-latching device shall comply with the requirements of Section 305.3.3.

305.3.3 Latches.

Where the release mechanism of the self-latching device is located less than 54 inches (1372 mm) from grade, the release mechanism shall be located on the vessel side of the gate at least 3 inches (76 mm) below the top of the gate, and the gate and barrier shall not have openings greater than 1/2 inch (12.7 mm) within 18 inches (457 mm) of the release mechanism.

305.4 Structure wall as a barrier.

Where a wall of a dwelling or structure serves as part of the barrier, doors and operable windows with a sill height of less than 48 inches (1219 mm) that provide direct access to the aquatic vessel through the wall, shall be equipped with one or more of the following:

1. An alarm that produces an audible warning when the door or its screen or window, is opened. The alarm shall be listed and labeled as a water hazard entrance alarm in accordance with UL 2017. In dwellings or structures not required to be Accessible units, Type A units or Type B units, the deactivation switch shall be located 54 inches (1372 mm) or more above the threshold of the door. In dwellings or structures required to be Accessible units, Type A units or Type B units, the deactivation switch shall be located not greater than 54 inches (1372 mm) and not less than 48 inches (1219 mm) above the threshold of the door.

2. A safety cover that is listed and labeled in accordance with ASTM F 1346.

3. An approved means of protection, such as self-closing doors with self-latching devices, provided that the degree of protection afforded is not less than the protection afforded by Items 1 or 2.

305.5 Pool structure as a barrier.

Where an onground residential pool structure is used as a barrier or where the barrier is mounted on top of the pool structure, the following shall apply:

1. An onground pool wall, itself, shall be permitted to be the barrier where the pool structure is on grade and the wall is at least 48 inches (1219 mm) above grade for the entire perimeter of the pool and complies with the requirements of Section 305.2.

2. Where the means of access is a ladder or steps, the ladder or steps shall be capable of being secured, locked or removed to prevent access or the ladder or steps shall be surrounded by a barrier that meets the requirements of this section.

3. When the ladder or steps are secured, locked or removed, any opening created shall not allow the passage of a 4 inch (102 mm) diameter sphere.

4. The barrier shall be installed in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions.

 

[Frank]

Note that for mesh barriers they have to be restrained not more than 1 inch above the concrete or deck but still have to meet the 4 inch sphere shall not pass requirement and shall be constructed such that they cannot be lifted higher than 4 inches--does not give a lifting force, one handed pull, 2 handed pull or forklift fork lift?

Another code quirk--I can take this structure full of water delete the chemicals, add koi and floating plants, post "no swimming" and remove the barrier completely.

The code does need more work.

 

[ICE]

Fence is already installed. Inspector came for the final inspection- took a ball that was 3 15/16" made of Styrofoam.Gently pushed it through the picket space, but could still hold the ball against the space without it going through if he wanted to.

This has been an issue for me once. It was a guard around an atrium at several floor levels. The posts were 2" re-bar and there was cable strung between them. I use a tape measure and fingers. If I push on the cable and it moves, there may be a problem. It has been a while since the cable guard but as I recall, they had to double up the number of cables.

So what's that got to do with this post about an aluminum guard. Shirley not a lot.

You say there are 3/4" pickets. 3/4"x what? Give us a picture. You know, there is usually more to the story. You've been building fences for 25 years....... certainly you have 4" balls. You did say that the inspector is gentle so if you pull out your set he probably won"t bust your balls.

 

[cda]

This has been an issue for me once. It was a guard around an atrium at several floor levels. The posts were 2" rebar and there was cable strung between them. I use a tape measure and fingers. If I push on the cable and it moves, there may be a problem. It has been a while since the cable guard but as I recall, they had to double up the number of cables. So what's that got to do with this post about an aluminum guard. Shirley not a lot.

You say there are 3/4" pickets. 3/4"x what? Give us a picture. You know, there is usually more to the story. You've been building fences for 25 years....... certainly you have 4" balls. You did say that the inspector is gentle so if you break out your set he probably won"t bust your balls.

""""Fence is already installed. Inspector came for the final inspection- took a ball that was 3 15/16" made of Styrofoam."""

Does that meet the intent of the code