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fully sprinklered school with non sprinklered outdoor storage space.

ccollings said:
at first, i didn't agree with the other interpretations but now i do and the storage space will be sprinklered. the added cost is not a lot for the scope of the project. the storage area is being designed to be converted to interior space in the future and the sprinkler system is already sized to accommodate it.. may revisit this in the future if they need to cut costs, but my guess is that if that happens the storage area will go away entirely so it'll be a non issue.
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wont the sprinkler system need to be a dry system seeing how its unconditioned space?
 
FWIW I completle agree that the space needs to be sprinklered, I would also classify it as part of the E occupancy. Now knowing they intend on fitting this space out in the future, classifying it as 'E' now will prevent the hassle of going thru a change of occupancy in the future.
 
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cda said:
Not all the time



303.1.3 Associated With Group E Occupancies


A room or space used for assembly purposes that is associated with a Group E occupancy is not considered a separate occupancy.
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Correct, an auditorium or gymnasium associated with a school can be classified as part of the Group E. But how are you proposing that they treat an S-1 storage use as part of the E?

You cant!
 
classicT said:
How? Why? What is your justification?

If it is unconditioned storage, use and occupancy classification per Ch. 3 is S-1.

508.1 General
Each portion of a building shall be individually classified in accordance with Section 302.1. Where a building contains more than one occupancy group, the building or portion thereof shall comply with the applicable provisions of Section 508.2, 508.3 or 508.4, or a combination of these sections.
Exceptions:
  1. Occupancies separated in accordance with Section 510.
  2. Where required by Table 415.6.2, areas of Group H-1, H-2 and H-3 occupancies shall be located in a detached building or structure.
  3. Uses within live/work units, complying with Section 419, are not considered separate occupancies.

I do not think he understands that the space in question is for storage and shall be classified as such.
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Did you seperate the office from the educational

or non seperated provisions

TABLE 508.4
 
how i've always interpreted it, i would consider the storage space as E, if it were less than 10% of the floor area (accessory use). in this case, the way the building is configured with the location of the fire walls, it's greater than 10% so I'm classifying it as a separate S-1 use.
 
Is the storage space adjacent to a fire wall? If so, that part of the fire wall will need a 3-hour rating. If it isn't adjacent to a fire wall, then the one hour ratig is adequate.
 
Paul Sweet said:
If it isn't adjacent to a fire wall, then the one hour ratig is adequate.
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Not accurate.... must design for the most restrictive use within the building. If the S-1 is large enough to be classified (i.e. >10%), then the fire wall must follow Table 706.4 and go with 3-hr rating. See image from commentary below.

IMG_E0324[1].JPG
 
the storage space is approx. 200' from the firewall. (it's at the end of the wing). i have the dividing wall between E & S-1 labeled as a 2 hour barrier. Per 508.4 it only requires a 1 hour separation. the wall is masonry and was labeled as 2 hour before so i've left that as is. the fire wall is labeled as 2 hour. i do believe that wall will need to be 3 hour but i want to think through what the implications of that are. the building is being estimated right now and the estimator has enough to go on. the program is still in flux and there are 2 more pricing exercises before this goes out to permit so there's plenty of time to change that wall down the road. my feeling is that if the numbers come in high, the storage room will be cut and this will all be a non issue.
 
right now my feeling is that it will be much easier/cheaper to change the separation wall between E & S-1 to be a 3 hour fire wall and not sprinkle the storage space. it is a solid masonry wall with no openings or penetrations. i may also suggest reducing the size of the storage space so that it's less than 10% of the floor area and can be considered an accessory use.
 
Great discussion, be thankful you are not in CA, public "E',s are reviewed and inspected (fulltime onsite) by DSA who are very through.
 
ccollings said:
right now my feeling is that it will be much easier/cheaper to change the separation wall between E & S-1 to be a 3 hour fire wall and not sprinkle the storage space. it is a solid masonry wall with no openings or penetrations. i may also suggest reducing the size of the storage space so that it's less than 10% of the floor area and can be considered an accessory use.
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Adding a structurally independent self supporting fire wall might cost as much as providing a sprinkler system in that space.
 
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