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Furnace change outs!

Permits required for HVAC and water heaters here. Half of the local plumbers (the ones who have been here forever) get permits, other half is hit and miss.

Add direct vent heaters to my list. Ever since they hired the latest installer for the local company, I haven't seen him or had him get permits on his own in the past year or so.
 
Bringing an old thread back from the dead here. My jurisdiction has a Mechanical/Fuel gas permit requirement for a variety of appliance installs and replacements. I maybe see one installer a year come in and get a permit. Just had one today. He asked "does anyone ever get permits?" I said "few and far between" He said "Back in New Jersey if you didn't pull a permit for anything from a furnace to a hot water heater you faced gettting fined" So this led me to thinking, how can a one man show begin to crack down on this mechaical permit requirement when for so many years everyone has looked the other way at it?
 
Mr. Inspector,

Thanks for the revitalizing this post, I have something to add to the conversation. XYZ does'nt require a basement remodel permit either, wonder what happens when they close around the furnace with walls and neglect the combustion air requirements for the furnace? Then they want to supply heat to the garage from that same furnace.

pc1
 
Sounds like a carbon monoxide accident waiting to happen! Well my plan is to put together a list of all the known mechanical contractors and Mr. fix it guys in town (probably 10 at the most) and send them a friendly reminder letter that Mechanical permits are required, along with a copy of the new application I created today. I am also thinking about sending them the penalty languge for not getting a permit. Section 15.20.040 Municipal Code: Penalties. Misdemeanor. Violation of the provisions of this land development code or any order issued by the zoning administrator shall constitute a misdemeanor. Upon conviction, the misdemeanor shall be punishable by a fine of up to $1,000, or imprisonment for a period of 90 days, or both such fine and imprisonment for each offense.Maybe that will get their attention. :o
 
Mr.Inspector said:
Sounds like a carbon monoxide accident waiting to happen! Well my plan is to put together a list of all the known mechanical contractors and Mr. fix it guys in town (probably 10 at the most) and send them a friendly reminder letter that Mechanical permits are required, along with a copy of the new application I created today. I am also thinking about sending them the penalty languge for not getting a permit. Section 15.20.040 Municipal Code: Penalties. Misdemeanor. Violation of the provisions of this land development code or any order issued by the zoning administrator shall constitute a misdemeanor. Upon conviction, the misdemeanor shall be punishable by a fine of up to $1,000, or imprisonment for a period of 90 days, or both such fine and imprisonment for each offense.Maybe that will get their attention. :o
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You could also contact the Colorado chapter of Plumbing Heating and Cooling Contractors (PHCC) and advise them and hit a larger audience of contractors.
 
And also connect with the Colorado Association of Plumbing & Mechanical Officials (CAPMO) and the Colorado Chapter of the ICC. Tons of connections and advice to be had.
 
A common issue around here is people upgrading to direct vent furnaces. The old furnace was vented through a brick chimney along with the water heater. By removing the old furance from the chimney it leaves a chimney that is too large for the water heater by itself. The municipality has required permits based on the BOCA International Mechanical Code 1996 - and subsequent editions, but it has NEVER been enforced.

I can just image the fun of telling someone that they need to re-vent their water heater when they think I am there to look at the new furnace.

Right off hand, I can think of one fire in my municipality caused by an improperly installed pellet stove. Obviously the installer (landlord) didn't get a permit.
 
Gregg Harris said:
You could also contact the Colorado chapter of Plumbing Heating and Cooling Contractors (PHCC) and advise them and hit a larger audience of contractors.
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fatboy said:
And also connect with the Colorado Association of Plumbing & Mechanical Officials (CAPMO) and the Colorado Chapter of the ICC. Tons of connections and advice to be had.
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Thanks I'll look into those organizations as well. I spoke with a mechanical contractor yesterday on a different subject and mentioned to to him that I was planning on tightening up on permits required. His response in a sarchastic tone was " Oh thank God"...I thought to myself (a-hole you just nominated yourself as the least likely to get away with another un-permitted install. Congratulations!:inspctr
 
MikeC said:
A common issue around here is people upgrading to direct vent furnaces. The old furnace was vented through a brick chimney along with the water heater. By removing the old furance from the chimney it leaves a chimney that is too large for the water heater by itself.
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We don't vent with masonry chimneys. I have never seen such a setup. It seems to me that the water heater has been operating by itself countless times and the chimney wasn't too big. Help me understand.

Thanks

Today I encountered this example of a typical single wall vent.

DSCN8476.jpg


DSCN8475.jpg


I also ran into a typical chimney today.

DSCN8473.jpg
 
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The majority of the homes in my area were built before 1940. Many date back to pre-1900. Almost all have at least one chimney that runs through the center of the house. The houses with basements had at least one appliance in the basement and usually another appliance hooked in on the first floor. Over the years modern appliances (80% efficiency) have been hooked into these chimneys which didn't create a problem, but now with more and more direct vent furnaces, many are being left for the water heater alone. There is the occasional 6x6 terracotta lined chimney which doesn't create a problem, but many are larger and oversized for just a standard water heater.

FWIW, I do feel bad for these people who have no basement and a water heater in the first floor. Relining the chimney is about the only option for a gas fired water heater as relocation of the water heater would be costly and difficult. The most common option I see is the transition for a gas fired water heater to an electric water heater.
 
MikeC said:
The majority of the homes in my area were built before 1940. Many date back to pre-1900. Almost all have at least one chimney that runs through the center of the house. The houses with basements had at least one appliance in the basement and usually another appliance hooked in on the first floor. Over the years modern appliances (80% efficiency) have been hooked into these chimneys which didn't create a problem, but now with more and more direct vent furnaces, many are being left for the water heater alone. There is the occasional 6x6 terracotta lined chimney which doesn't create a problem, but many are larger and oversized for just a standard water heater.FWIW, I do feel bad for these people who have no basement and a water heater in the first floor. Relining the chimney is about the only option for a gas fired water heater as relocation of the water heater would be costly and difficult. The most common option I see is the transition for a gas fired water heater to an electric water heater.
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Depending on the air tightness of the house even increasing the efficiency of units vented through old chimneys can create a combustion spillage problem. As we increase efficiency we reduce the amount of heat in the exhaust of the equipment which in turn reduces the force of the up-draft through the chimney. so, where buildings are fairly air tight and/or have over-sized exhaust equipment this could draw equipment exhaust into the living space, posing a danger to occupants.
 
I still don't get why the arrangement became a violation just because a furnace was removed. Unless the furnace and water heater were interlocked, why would it matter?
 
ICE said:
I still don't get why the arrangement became a violation just because a furnace was removed. Unless the furnace and water heater were interlocked, why would it matter?
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IFGC 501.15 (2009) Existing Chimneys and vents. Where an appliance is permanently disconnected from an existing chimney or vent, or where an appliance is connected to an existing chimney or vent during the process of a new installation, the chimney or vent shall comply with Sections 501.15.1 through 501.15.4

501.15.1 Size. The chimney or vent shall be resized as necessary to control flue gas condensation in the interior of the chimney or vent and to provide the appliance or appliancesserved with the required draft. For Category I appliances, the resizing shall be in accordance with Section 502.

It was -9 degrees here the other morning. Just a water heater vented into an oversized vent will have trouble establishing a good draft, especially with a 25 mph wind blowing. Not only draft , but condensation would be a problem. Flue gas condensation is acidic, so excessive condensation in an unlined masonry chimney or a single wall connector will deteriorate the vent system much quicker than normal. This is particularly a problem with masonry chimneys on cold days because it takes so long for the masonry to warm up to create a good draft.
 
Another problem I've seen on some older homes with a clay lined masonry chimney is while the old furnace connected to the clay liner, the water heater entered the masonry at a different location with no opening into the clay liner. It was just venting, or attempting to vent, into the space around the liner
 
klarenbeek said:
IFGC 501.15 (2009) Existing Chimneys and vents. Where an appliance is permanently disconnected from an existing chimney or vent, or where an appliance is connected to an existing chimney or vent during the process of a new installation, the chimney or vent shall comply with Sections 501.15.1 through 501.15.4501.15.1 Size. The chimney or vent shall be resized as necessary to control flue gas condensation in the interior of the chimney or vent and to provide the appliance or appliancesserved with the required draft. For Category I appliances, the resizing shall be in accordance with Section 502.

It was -9 degrees here the other morning. Just a water heater vented into an oversized vent will have trouble establishing a good draft, especially with a 25 mph wind blowing. Not only draft , but condensation would be a problem. Flue gas condensation is acidic, so excessive condensation in an unlined masonry chimney or a single wall connector will deteriorate the vent system much quicker than normal. This is particularly a problem with masonry chimneys on cold days because it takes so long for the masonry to warm up to create a good draft.
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I get all of that. What I don't get is....what I said before.
 
Removing a furnace from a existing vent is "permanently disconnecting" it. 501.15 the requires that the vent is resized.

On those cold days the chimney has been kept warmer by the furnace running. Even if the furnace is not running at the same time as the furnace, the furnace has been running on and off throughout the nite keeping it warm. Without the furnace doing that, nothing is keeping that chimney warm through the night, so when everyone wakes up a 6 a.m. and starts showering, ect., now the water heater kickes in and is trying to vent in a chimney that has cooled down to sub zero temps at any point above the attic insulation. If it is even able to establish a draft, a 30,000 btu water heater would make it look like it was raining inside that 10" masonry chimney.

It worked with the old furnace because it was probably at best 60% efficient. The other 40%+ helped keep the chimney warm.
 
"Even if the furnace is not running at the same time as the furnace"

Sorry, I meant "Even if the furnace is not running at the same time as the water heater"
 
This discussion just got very interesting for me. I began to look into chimney sizing (2009 IFGC 503.5.5). Number 3 applies to two hooded appliances using the same chimney. It seems that the chimney is never allowed to be greater than 7 times the area of the smallest draft hood. So, if the chimney is oversized following the removal of the furnace, it was also oversized when the furnace was in place. This may be ICE's hang-up. Even if it isn't, it made a light pop on in my brain.
 
klarenbeek said:
Removing a furnace from a existing vent is "permanently disconnecting" it. 501.15 the requires that the vent is resized. On those cold days the chimney has been kept warmer by the furnace running. Even if the furnace is not running at the same time as the furnace, the furnace has been running on and off throughout the nite keeping it warm. Without the furnace doing that, nothing is keeping that chimney warm through the night, so when everyone wakes up a 6 a.m. and starts showering, ect., now the water heater kickes in and is trying to vent in a chimney that has cooled down to sub zero temps at any point above the attic insulation. If it is even able to establish a draft, a 30,000 btu water heater would make it look like it was raining inside that 10" masonry chimney.

It worked with the old furnace because it was probably at best 60% efficient. The other 40%+ helped keep the chimney warm.
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And in the summer?
 
It's less of a problem in the summer, but it needs to draft properly year round, not just 6-8 month of the year. Also, a lot of these older homes had NO mechanical inspections when they were built. We had no mechanical inspections until 1994, so a lot of old homes here are on their 3rd,4th or more furnace with no inspections. The chimney was originally built for at best an old gravity furnace or mabye even a coal furnace. Masonry chimneys will deteriorate over time if not properly lined, so at what point do you finally address an ongoing problem with what could be a life safety issue? that's why the resizing is required by code.
 
So this brings up the next question. The chimney was pre-existing non-compliant. In the absence of some other PM code, it would be allowed to continue to exist as long as no changes were made. Now that a change has been made to the already oversized chimney by the removal of an appliance, I feel it is my obligation to address the oversized chimney. I can only assume that it why 505.15.1 is there and 505.15 addresses permanent removal of appliances.

Anybody wanna discuss wall bracing? :twisted:
 
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