So the country is ruled by the manufacturer? I know the code. That has nothing to do with my question!!! My outlet will fail according to code ... WHY? The lobbyist pay lots and lots of money to make sure they don't allow us taxpayers to cut the feed from the breaker panel to put an outlet and plug! So that way there we are forced to pay hundreds and hundreds of dollars for their transfer switches. That's the answer. You know why ? Because I said so! Puppets in this country . Not right. The lobbyist that work for these transfer switch company's pay to make sure the code stays this way. That's a fact.
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Furnace plugged into the wall
- Thread starter DMartin
- Start date
Again...I know the codes,after 43 years in the business,I know. The best way of learning about anything someone teaches you ,is to explain why . Sounds so stupid to say because it's code. WHY not explained why. I always brought my children up with rules and explained why those rules are there. Never told because that's the law!
Cool your jets man. I am sure you explained every law and its legal history to your children as well. Never said that it is just the law of the land. You explained every law and rule in full. Yup, I bet you did.
We a re group of code professionals that are willing to help you. We are not your enemy, we are not the one enforcing the code upon you. If you do not like a code provision, or want more of an explanation into its origin, go look into it yourself. But do not demand that we do it for you.
Just responding to your insult of you saying " your obvious lack of knowledge about the codes is showing". Think about it. I'm just a reasonable man looking for reasons. That's the problem ,too many puppets!
BTW ya I'm a professional also. Masterfor 37 years and journey man for 3 and apprentice for 3
You are misquoting me; that is not what I said. Beyond that, I do not have a cart in this race, so I will bow out. My intent was just to encourage you to be polite to the members of this board, who are trying to help you. We don't have all the answers, and your expectation of us to provided them to you is misguided and arrogant.
And just for your info, as soon as someone starts to give their resume, you've got them beat. If you want to keep making the same mistakes, go ahead; just know that it means you're an old dog who cant learn a new trick.
As soon as someone starts to give their resume? ?? Same mistakes??? Just went back to read the answer from ice ...that's word for word exactly what he said. I'm sorry I do realize I'm probably in the wrong forum at this point. As far as an old dog new tricks... The CODE used to say garbage disposers had to be hard wired along with dishwashers... Not any more wtf! I guess they told the manufacturer huh? And when ice ,or whoever , tells me that their reason they won't let you hook up a cord coming out of my breaker panel (Romex) is because mice or rats might eat it , is absurd. 99% of mice and rats live in the walls snuggling up to all that Romex in there.
Like I said one outlet not a duplex 6 feet off the floor in the closet where my breaker panel is.wise ass .my children moved out in 1985
No kidding,really?Never did I say inspectors write the code. Don't tell me YOU think they do? Wow!. Codes are for safety. Inspectors enforce the code. Pay attention! Just answer the question...why is it code? Maybe your all inspectors here? If that's the case,why are you coming here for answers when your supposed to know the codes
Yup they don't supply the cable either
Forty-three years into it and you ask first year questions. I sense that you’ve gotten a year’s worth of experience forty-three times.
Did you say outlet, didn't you mean to say receptacle?
In your application, is the furnace circuit a dedicated circuit with a single receptacle?
Breaker panel in a closet, is it a clothes closet? receptacle in a clothes closet, isn't that a violation? The code number escapes me, wonder why that's a code?
Utility closet. Of course it's a dedicated circuit . because that's the code! Receptacle ok wtf now this is a Grammer corrections site? Again... Can you imagine this guy asking me about receptacle in clothes closet? I thought he would know!
tmurray
SAWHORSE
Here is the answer:
Furnaces are listed. This means they are tested (usually by a third party) to ensure they are safe. The unit now needs to be installed in a way consistent with the way it is tested. The manufacturer's installation instructions mirror the testing conditions.
We all work in the land of what is proven. If the manufacturer tests their product with a cord, that's fine. Use a cord. We know it is safe.
We do not work in the land of opinions.
Furnaces are listed. This means they are tested (usually by a third party) to ensure they are safe. The unit now needs to be installed in a way consistent with the way it is tested. The manufacturer's installation instructions mirror the testing conditions.
We all work in the land of what is proven. If the manufacturer tests their product with a cord, that's fine. Use a cord. We know it is safe.
We do not work in the land of opinions.
In the beginning there was the code book that some electricians were taught the following:
NEC definitions, Article 1, Chapter 1:
Outlet: A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment. (Junction box?)
Receptacle: A contact devise installed at the outlet for the connection of an attachment plug or for the direct connection of electrical utilization equipment designed to mate with the corresponding contact devise.
I don't recall discussing any grammar issues, but I am linguistically challenged myself.
steveray
SAWHORSE
From another site:
Not just the cord cap, the cord itself, the ambient temperatures in the unconditioned attic space, and the wiring method (AHU listed to be wired thusly, and is the cord set listed & supplied by the AHU manufacturer?).
You describe a very hot environment - attic temperatures which rise to what I suspect would require extensive derating to use NM as well, to accomodate the fan motor draw for the air handler when called upon to circulate for AC when the attic has experienced its maximum heat gain, voltage drop/increased resistance would cause an increased current draw.
As you describe the environment it seems reasonable to expect that attic temperatures may exceed 140 degrees F (60 degrees C). The listed appliance cords I am familiar with are limited to 60 degrees C. 16 awg SPT-3s are usually limited to 13 amps and 60 degrees C and are usually classified as power supply cords, not major appliance cord sets.
Major appliance cord sets are usually 12 awg & 14 awg type SPT-3, and are rated for 20 and 15 amps respectively, usually limited to 60 degrees C and 300 volts. (such as the attached pdf document). They are usually listed and used to replace existing cord sets for portable dishwashers, microwaves, freezers, portable dehumidifiers and portable air conditioners and the like, not for permanently (attached) installed equipment (microhoods and range/cooktop, if permitted by local code, exhaust hoods excepted).
Since the gas fired appliance (furnace) and the Air Handler are not "attended" they operate in an "automatic" and unattended mode - and vibrations, environmental temperature swings influencing more rapid metal fatigue of the receptacle springs, even if a permissable wiring method would expect a locking type cord cap set and receptacle rated at least 20 amps, and dust, debris, pollen, etc. may freely blow through an attic via its ventillation, etc.
Non conditioned space and nightime cooler temperatures at certain times of the year - i.e. temperature swings and unconditioned ventillated (even if just "natural ventillation") space - dew points, condensation likely - damp location wiring methods, this effectively rules out NM cable for this location (but not necessarily NMC Cable if properly sized, rated and properly derated). I much prefer metalic conduit methods in attics as the metal conduit has the ability to "put off" its heat, unlike plastics, and are much more "critter resistant".
It SHOULD be OK to do it correctly, but it can't be done legally per manufacturer unless they specifically allow it....Maybe too many done wrong....
Not just the cord cap, the cord itself, the ambient temperatures in the unconditioned attic space, and the wiring method (AHU listed to be wired thusly, and is the cord set listed & supplied by the AHU manufacturer?).
You describe a very hot environment - attic temperatures which rise to what I suspect would require extensive derating to use NM as well, to accomodate the fan motor draw for the air handler when called upon to circulate for AC when the attic has experienced its maximum heat gain, voltage drop/increased resistance would cause an increased current draw.
As you describe the environment it seems reasonable to expect that attic temperatures may exceed 140 degrees F (60 degrees C). The listed appliance cords I am familiar with are limited to 60 degrees C. 16 awg SPT-3s are usually limited to 13 amps and 60 degrees C and are usually classified as power supply cords, not major appliance cord sets.
Major appliance cord sets are usually 12 awg & 14 awg type SPT-3, and are rated for 20 and 15 amps respectively, usually limited to 60 degrees C and 300 volts. (such as the attached pdf document). They are usually listed and used to replace existing cord sets for portable dishwashers, microwaves, freezers, portable dehumidifiers and portable air conditioners and the like, not for permanently (attached) installed equipment (microhoods and range/cooktop, if permitted by local code, exhaust hoods excepted).
Since the gas fired appliance (furnace) and the Air Handler are not "attended" they operate in an "automatic" and unattended mode - and vibrations, environmental temperature swings influencing more rapid metal fatigue of the receptacle springs, even if a permissable wiring method would expect a locking type cord cap set and receptacle rated at least 20 amps, and dust, debris, pollen, etc. may freely blow through an attic via its ventillation, etc.
Non conditioned space and nightime cooler temperatures at certain times of the year - i.e. temperature swings and unconditioned ventillated (even if just "natural ventillation") space - dew points, condensation likely - damp location wiring methods, this effectively rules out NM cable for this location (but not necessarily NMC Cable if properly sized, rated and properly derated). I much prefer metalic conduit methods in attics as the metal conduit has the ability to "put off" its heat, unlike plastics, and are much more "critter resistant".
It SHOULD be OK to do it correctly, but it can't be done legally per manufacturer unless they specifically allow it....Maybe too many done wrong....
That attic might be on the Space Station. Talk about overthinking it.
Again I get that ...that is great. I can cut the Romex coming out of my beaker panel and put a junction box, as long as it's not buried,But I can't for my furnace. Just don't get it. That's all . I don't want a cord coming off the furnace. I want a RECEPTACLE on the wall after the breaker panel(high above the floor , single RECEPTACLE), attach a 3 prong plug to the other side of the Romex. But the code won't let me.why? Furnace is 50' plus or minus from the proposed RECEPTACLE. Yes I know it's code. Why? What is the safety factor? All I'm trying to do is avoid the price of the 400$ transfer switch when I can do this for 3 dollars. Puppets. No cord on my furnace. I have plenty of that for my 10 to 15 lamps .one that that code requires for my garbage disposers one for my dishwasher. One for my compressor . I don't need those when there is a power outage. I need one for heat so I don't get frostbite. Why does everybody just say it's code! Zombies puppets, your all so full of code knowledge but don't care about common sense.
Correct . That's what i said . Outlet meaning where I was coming out of the breaker panel 1-2' then adding a receptacle.
tmurray
SAWHORSE
But that's the thing. It's not a code requirement. It's the people who make make your furnace. You could try to find one that includes an option for a receptacle, but the reality is that none seem to exist.
You seem to believe it is the responsibility of the enforcement body to tell you why the law exists. This is not true. The police officer cannot tell you why the road is posted at a certain speed limit. The engineer who designed the road can.
If you want to know why your furnace cannot be connected via a receptacle, contact the manufacturer and speak to the engineering department.
Paul Sweet
Sawhorse
"If you want to know why your furnace cannot be connected via a receptacle, contact the manufacturer and speak to the engineering department."
And then use their response to request a code modification from the building official.
And then use their response to request a code modification from the building official.
Thanks for all your replies but the speed limit comparison is simply not true . If that police officer doesn't know why,although he is not required to know why, that's his stupidity. Granted engineers made roads for maximum speed limits,but...during the energy crisis all hiways ,went to 55 mph. The government does that... Not engineers. The same hiways in parts of the USA are 85 mph. Again,puppets that you accept this for an answer. (Manufacturers) .like I said the people who wright the NEC and or fire people.whatever you want to call them. Perfect example is the NEC told the manufacturers that they now need to put cords on garbage disposers and dishwashers. I'm sorry but please... Don't ask me for one second to believe that the manufacturer tells the code people what to do.. remember this is the United States of America. The people ultimately vote and make the rules . Not money making manufacturers. Lobbyist lobbyist lobbyist that get paid to pay people In power legally or sometimes not. I'm just tired of stupid codes that make no sense. Stop and think. A lot of them are perfectly safe. And if they claim there not...it's the most rediclous reasoning that anyone should believe. Wow this is a long one.hey I'm an ass what can I say. Common sense is a thing that used to mean so much, seams no more . No such thing as common anymore. So people will now do illegal things because they know it won't pass code. Thinking they know how. Where as they could have done it legally because they could have afforded to pay.
I Have but , you need to get people on board and start talking about it. It needs to start somewhere... actually everywhere that deals with these issues. It is my intention to use this forum to get it started understanding that a lot of people here are going to disagree this is not the place. Just thinking there's a lot of people here with a lot of knowledge.