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Garage /dwelling separation door

Sifu

Sifu

SAWHORSE
Joined
Sep 3, 2011
Messages
3,315
If a house and garage were attached only by an open covered breezeway would you require the steel/solid wood/20 min. door typically required for separation? I am thinking of 1/2" vertical drywall separation from roof to plate on the wall to protect from flame spread across the framed breezeway and if I went that way I can't see how I could justify the 9 lite door they have on the plan. But if someone wiser than me shows me a better way......
 
They could install a nine light door five feet from their neighbor's garage.

They can install a window, one foot from their own garage.

Indeed, the code allows them to install a EERO across the breezeway from a window on the garage.

You're over cooking the code.
 
what year code,, 2006,irc, if less than 3 feet between garage and house, you need opening protective door, (r309.2) fwiw......
 
Sorry, more info now. I have two different projects on tap. One is an screened porch/breezeway 20' wide and 12' from the main house, sitting on a crawlspace foundation connected by a roof/attic. The other is an open breezeway 22' wide, 10' from the main house sitting on a slab, connected above by an enclosed walkway directly to an existing stairwell landing. All that info being taken into consideration Brudgers has some good points about me over thinking the code but the code is pretty specific about separating the garage from the dwelling. Just want to make sure the breezeway doesn't make the detached garage an attached garage and make the breezeway be considered part of "the dwelling" in these cases. 2006 IRC.
 
We have had some similar projects, If the breezeway has an enclosed attic and it connects the garage and house attic then yes separate them. Remember 19/32 sheathing gives you the same 15 minutes of resistance as the required 1/2" sheet rock so that is one way of achieving compliance.

Don't over think it but check to make sure the do not put ventilation holes in the roof sheating where the breezeway attaches to the house/garage
 
Sifu said:
All that info being taken into consideration Brudgers has some good points about me over thinking the code but the code is pretty specific about separating the garage from the dwelling. Just want to make sure the breezeway doesn't make the detached garage an attached garage and make the breezeway be considered part of "the dwelling" in these ca ses. 2006 IRC.
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The breezeway is part of the dwelling. So is the garage.

Indeed, there could be another dwelling unit and several more garages which were part of the dwelling.

Other than some ninny telling you that you should have applied the most absurd possible interpretation of the code, what hazard are you trying to prevent?
 
Trying to prevent two things; 1) fire spreading from an unoccupied area to the overhead structure connecting the house & garage and 2) preventing me from incorrectly enforcing or not enforcing a code. To me it is not a black and white answer so I look for other opinions. I want to see if some smart guy who wrote the code decided that separation by some minimal fire barrier should be done even if it is just a breezeway making the connection. Keep in mind I am not looking for ways to "get" someone. I am looking to make sure I do my job, which at the end of the day is safety. I would be happy as a clam if nobody thought it was a significant safety risk, happier than the alternative. But again, opinions vary and they matter so I ask.

Yankee, no siding iside a garage and not sure of the point.
 
Sifu said:
Trying to prevent two things; 1) fire spreading from an unoccupied area to the overhead structure connecting the house & garage and 2) preventing me from incorrectly enforcing or not enforcing a code. To me it is not a black and white answer so I look for other opinions. I want to see if some smart guy who wrote the code decided that separation by some minimal fire barrier should be done even if it is just a breezeway making the connection. Keep in mind I am not looking for ways to "get" someone. I am looking to make sure I do my job, which at the end of the day is safety. I would be happy as a clam if nobody thought it was a significant safety risk, happier than the alternative. But again, opinions vary and they matter so I ask. Yankee, no siding iside a garage and not sure of the point.
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O.K. Let's assume that there is a fire in the garage. And let's assume that it happens right at the door - since otherwise it is far more unlikely to affect the breezeway. And let's assume that the fire burns up into the breezeway roof - since fire tends to spread upward for the same reason heat rises.

And let's assume that the fire begins to burn across the breezeway roof without causing the breezeway roof to collapse and separate the two portions of the structure (rather than continuing to rise).

Since we know (not assume) that the vast majority of domestic fires start in the kitchen.

And since we know (not assume) that a plurality of fatal domestic fires are caused by falling asleep while smoking (yes, banning smoking would probably reduce fire deaths far more than 13D systems).

What, sort of life safety improvement does your interpretation really provide?

And will you please enforce the code without the "it's for the children" bull****?
 
I think the crux of the question is if the garage and the house are "attached". If they are attached, then the provisions of the section apply. If they are not "attached" then they don't.

I would say they are attached. You may say they aren't attached. I would only say to have a written reason in detail as to your decision so that you can replicate it the next hundred times you have a similar application.
 
Where is the children bull in this thread?

A door opening into an open breezeway is not opening into the residence and would not need to be rated.

R309.1 Opening protection. Openings from a private garage

directly into a room used for sleeping purposes shall not be per-

mitted. Other openings between the garage and residence shall

be equipped with solidwood doors not less than 13/8 inches (35

mm) in thickness, solid or honeycomb core steel doors not less

than 13/8 inches (35 mm) thick, or 20-minute fire-rated doors.

There is no rating required for a carport. I would however change the door to a rated door if they enclosed the breezeway.
 
Yankee said:
I think the crux of the question is if the garage and the house are "attached". If they are attached, then the provisions of the section apply. If they are not "attached" then they don't. I would say they are attached. You may say they aren't attached. I would only say to have a written reason in detail as to your decision so that you can replicate it the next hundred times you have a similar application.
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There is a requirement is separation from "the residence" (whatever the hell that is) and it's attic area. There is also a requirement for separation from a dwelling unit when they are on the same lot and within three feet of each other.

Since a carport can become a garage, it would be hard to argue that a carport is part of a residence (whatever the hell that is).
 
The open breezeway or carport privides a higher level of safety by venting the flames and products of combustion than would be provided by the 1/2 inch drywall.

It could be argued that the door from the garage to the breezeway is between the garage and the dwelling unit and require a solid door between the garage and the breezeway but not between the breezeway and the house.
 
Frank said:
The open breezeway or carport privides a higher level of safety by venting the flames and products of combustion than would be provided by the 1/2 inch drywall. It could be argued that the door from the garage to the breezeway is between the garage and the dwelling unit and require a solid door between the garage and the breezeway but not between the breezeway and the house.
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I would say that the intent of the code is to protect the dwelling space from an enclosed attached garage that can communicate flame and smoke directly to the interior of the dwelling. With an open breezeway in between the dwelling and the garage I would treat it just like one might treat a carport and for the same reasons a carport requires no separation or in this case no rated door. If the attic space is concealed and flammable then I would put up the rated dry wall on the garage wall connected to the breezeway attic.
 
Frank said:
The open breezeway or carport privides a higher level of safety by venting the flames and products of combustion than would be provided by the 1/2 inch drywall. It could be argued that the door from the garage to the breezeway is between the garage and the dwelling unit and require a solid door between the garage and the breezeway but not between the breezeway and the house.
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It would be hard to make that argument with a straight face.
 
Since there doesn't seem to be a silver bullet, black and white, written interpretation I can find I am thinking this way; 1/2" separation between communicating attic spaces, not worrying about the door. The intent of the code is a 20 min. separation (not rated) between house and garage. Seems to be enough good points here to reasonably say that an open breezeway with 10' of separation does not communicate. I think those are good and consistent reasons for this condition moving forward. Any dissent? I may put this to ICC when I get time.
 
Essentially agree with gbhammer and the last post by Sifu. Protection of some kind where the enclosed attached attic space is whther it be at the garage end, the house end or somewhere in between, and treat the open breezeway as being no more restricitve than if it were a carport, which it could easily be used as.
 
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