• Welcome to the new and improved Building Code Forum. We appreciate you being here and hope that you are getting the information that you need concerning all codes of the building trades. This is a free forum to the public due to the generosity of the Sawhorses, Corporate Supporters and Supporters who have upgraded their accounts. If you would like to have improved access to the forum please upgrade to Sawhorse by first logging in then clicking here: Upgrades

Gas logs

ICE

ICE

Oh Well
Joined
Jun 23, 2011
Messages
12,922
Location
California
Some time ago I was with a friend looking at new condominiums to buy. At one location in the city of Anaheim Hills I noticed a conventional wood burning fireplace that was plumbed with gas pipe for a log lighter or gas logs but no appliance was installed. The chimney has a damper that could close completely. I mentioned that the damper should have hardware that prevents it from closing all the way. The salesperson asked me what I based that statement on and I told her that I am an inspector.

Well that's as far as it went, until I got a call (at work) from the Anaheim Superintendent of Building.(SOB) It seems that the saleslady told the developer who called the building dept. They had my name because I had to sign in and they were able to track me down....and chew me out. The SOB was angry that I created a ***** storm in his jurisdiction. The SOB stated that the hardware to prevent the damper from closing isn't required until or unless there is a gas appliance installed in the fireplace. The SOB of Anaheim went so far as to call my SOB who concurred and who called me to tell me so.

I don't get it. The part can't cost $2 and takes 20 seconds to install. I say that if gas is plumbed to the fireplace, the damper should be blocked and not wait for a H/O to do it because he installed a log lighter. It is worth noting that the hardware is never installed before I require it, with or without a log lighter/gas log.

Just in case either SOB is looking in:

So far, nobody has objected when I have required the hardware and despite your instruction, I get it every time.

Tiger
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I personally don't think it's a good idea to block the damper so it can't close completely until the gas appliance is installed. You're just allowing a known air leak which will help reduce energy efficiency. When and if the Gas Appliances installed the damper should be modified.
 
I'll also play the devils advocate, and what I would feel compelled to enforce. The gas appliance is not in place, may very well never be in place, you are enforcing code based on your assumption of what may happen. Not a good position. Document the presence of the gas piping, and the advice to install hardware upon installation of said gas appliance, and move on.
 
Msradell said:
I personally don't think it's a good idea to block the damper so it can't close completely until the gas appliance is installed. You're just allowing a known air leak which will help reduce energy efficiency. When and if the Gas Appliances installed the damper should be modified.
Click to expand...
We require glass doors to take care of that. The damper is held open perhaps 3/8". The damper seldom fits airtight to begin with and the hardware really adds little on most. If there were a tight fit, which I suppose does happen, the hardware adds a lot.

Be careful with the word "modified." If the damper is "modified", the listing is void.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
fatboy said:
I'll also play the devils advocate, and what I would feel compelled to enforce. The gas appliance is not in place, may very well never be in place, you are enforcing code based on your assumption of what may happen. Not a good position. Document the presence of the gas piping, and the advice to install hardware upon installation of said gas appliance, and move on.
Click to expand...
I guess I could leave them a note in the fireplace.
 
You can't enforce a requirement on something that is not installed. Regardless of your personal preference. Period.
 
fatboy said:
You can't enforce a requirement on something that is not installed. Regardless of your personal preference. Period.
Click to expand...
Well until they break my fingers I guess I can.
 
I should have said, you shouldn't enforce requirements based on something not installed. Of course you can force it.......and I hate to quote brudgers, but at that point you are making them do the dance.
 
Well fatboy, sometimes ya just gotta think outside the box. I knew this would stir the pot some because most folks look at the code as a box and if it's not in the box then it's not code. Common sense isn't allowed because my common sense may differ from other's common sense. Keep in mind the piddling amount this will cost.

It's the cheapest dance they've ever been to.

You said this, "You can't enforce a requirement on something that is not installed." The gas pipe is installed. That's all I need to know.

Msradell said this, "You're just allowing a known air leak which will help reduce energy efficiency." You should have added "and save lives."
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Cost doesn't mean jack.....and neither does the piping. And this isn't a "box" question. The provision of the piping is for a possible future installation, may or may not happen. No matter how warm and fuzzy it makes you feel, enforcing anticipated future uses is overstepping your authority. JMHO Done.
 
Aw come on fats, you can't be done already. "Warm and fuzzy" is it. Do you think I'm covered in fur?

I wonder how many inspectors that see this will think, "Oh crap, I haven't been getting the hardware, ever."

I reckon you are concerned with how many would be polluted with my take on code enforcement. Your concern is valid and I should preface what I post at forums with a disclaimer stating "Do not attempt this at home."

Tiger
 
Last edited by a moderator:
ICE said:
We require glass doors to take care of that. The damper is held open perhaps 3/8". The damper seldom fits airtight to begin with and the hardware really adds little on most. If there were a tight fit, which I suppose does happen, the hardware adds a lot.Be careful with the word "modified." If the damper is "modified", the listing is void.
Click to expand...
You should NOT be requiring glass doors on wood burning fireplaces

http://www.rumford.com/GasketedFPdoorsIntertekopinion.pdf
 
If they install a ventless logset it does not require a damper clamp. In fact, it would defeat the purpose. You cannot enforce what ifs. That is where we get a bad name.

If they have drywall stacked in the unfinished attic at the final inspection do you cite them for work without a permit because they might finish the room at some point in the future? I think you are trying to stir it up on this one.
 
Daddy-0- said:
If they install a ventless logset it does not require a damper clamp. In fact, it would defeat the purpose. You cannot enforce what ifs. That is where we get a bad name. If they have drywall stacked in the unfinished attic at the final inspection do you cite them for work without a permit because they might finish the room at some point in the future? I think you are trying to stir it up on this one.
Click to expand...
There's no such thing as a vent-less log set in my jurisdiction.

I'm not looking into the future at what ifs. The gas pipe is there now.

"do you cite them for work without a permit because they might finish the room" If an attic is stocked with drywall, I have questions. Do you ask about attics stocked with plywood? Do you make sure that the ceiling works as a floor too? I am one of the most easy going inspectors around when it comes to work without a permit. I could tell you stories but then you could tell me that I give inspectors a bad name.

I did know that the pot would get stirred with this one. So go ahead and blame me for the bad name we have, I can handle it.

Look around, I'm alone in this. Nobody will agree with me so it's not a widespread problem of rogue inspectors now is it.

People had to die before the code addressed the problem. Shirley Prudence demands that I look for a way to enforce the code rather than look for a way to ignore it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I know that I said I was done, but actually I'm inclined to agree with daddy-o, me thinks you are trying to get some action going this weekend, and the traffic is slow.
 
fatboy said:
I know that I said I was done, but actually I'm inclined to agree with daddy-o, me thinks you are trying to get some action going this weekend, and the traffic is slow.
Click to expand...
Actually fatboy it is all true and it is always slow here.
 
I am not trying to egg you on or put you down or anything like that. My point is this... a gas line stubbed into a fireplace is just that. You don't know what if anything will ever be installed. We have lots of unvented logsets here. Many models can be a vented decorative appliances OR an unvented fireplace. Only the vented decorative appliance requires a damper clamp.

We have lots of builders who have attics set up to be finished in the future. A good builder will stock the shower unit and the drywall in the attic leaning on the wall as a courtesy to the client so they don't have to try to get it in the attic window later. We make a note on the final inspection that the space is not finished and move on. That is all you can legally do IMO.

I have always respected your opinions and almost always agree with them but in this case I do not. And of course that is also just an opinion.
 
Daddy-0- said:
I am not trying to egg you on or put you down or anything like that. My point is this... a gas line stubbed into a fireplace is just that. You don't know what if anything will ever be installed. We have lots of unvented logsets here. Many models can be a vented decorative appliances OR an unvented fireplace. Only the vented decorative appliance requires a damper clamp. We have lots of builders who have attics set up to be finished in the future. A good builder will stock the shower unit and the drywall in the attic leaning on the wall as a courtesy to the client so they don't have to try to get it in the attic window later. We make a note on the final inspection that the space is not finished and move on. That is all you can legally do IMO.

I have always respected your opinions and almost always agree with them but in this case I do not. And of course that is also just an opinion.
Click to expand...
Everybody, including my SOB agrees with you. I am OK with that and do it my way because I can. You are right in that a gas stub is just a gas stub and I don't know what will become of it. I know what can become of it and I know that the clamp seldom gets installed by contractors so I have no confidence that a H/O will install a clamp. I just feel better knowing that a $2 clamp may save a life. I am also convinced that code allows me to do so.

The contractors that stock attics are doing a good thing and I wouldn't stand in their way as long as the original construction accommodated a room in the attic. Here in So. California, we don't have many tall attics because we don't have snow or maybe we lack imagination. I do encounter plywood because they want to turn the attic into a storage space. I find this at the framing inspection and more often than not, I must say no because the ceiling isn't built for that.

I remember when the vent-less appliances hit the market. My AHJ said no and it remains so today. I haven't asked about them for a long time so I could be wrong. I don't mind being wrong at all as long as I finally find out about it.

And by the way Daddy-0-, I remember you as a level headed guy that is worth paying attention to. We will not always agree and I wouldn't expect that we should.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Did you want the condo?

If so you may have blown it, but then again I'm sure you rather blow it then have you're home blow it.
 
Most of the "unvented" units I have seen say that they can not be installed unvented in "tight construction"...if so, and we allow them, we are buying in to the liability for a CO claim I imagine....
 
= =



"The SOB of Anaheim went so far as to call my SOB who concurred and who called me to tell me so."
Click to expand...
Interesting & humorous choice of abbreviated references! :cool:$ $
 
ICE said:
Well fatboy, sometimes ya just gotta think outside the box. I knew this would stir the pot some because most folks look at the code as a box and if it's not in the box then it's not code. Common sense isn't allowed because my common sense may differ from other's common sense. Keep in mind the piddling amount this will cost. It's the cheapest dance they've ever been to. You said this, "You can't enforce a requirement on something that is not installed." The gas pipe is installed. That's all I need to know. Msradell said this, "You're just allowing a known air leak which will help reduce energy efficiency." You should have added "and save lives."
Click to expand...
They don't have to install it. They can take out the gas line to the fireplace, instead. It's all about options (another of Milton's directives).
 
ICE said:
Everybody, including my SOB agrees with you. I am OK with that and do it my way because I can.
Click to expand...
And shockingly, there are still those who have negative feelings about public employees and building departments...

Hopefully you're also requiring EER windows in walk-in closets because someone might sleep in one someday.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top