Grounding electrode conductor

[ICE]

I always included a trap primer.

Beat that

 

[jar546]

I always included a trap primer.Beat that

You clearly win

 

[ICE]

Years ago, when I was just a kid, I worked at a factory that manufactured equipment which included an electron beam gun. At one installation our equipment would get wigged out and lose control of the electron beam. The problem was cured with a water hose at the grounding electrode.

 

[Dennis]

Years ago, when I was just a kid,

You're just talking chronologically right.

 

[chris kennedy]

I have really not heard a good reason why the turned up rebar is a bad idea.

Well since 250.52(A)(3) requires the CEE to be encased in 2" of concrete, the portion stubbed up out of the concrete is no longer an electrode, it becomes a grounding electrode conductor. Violation of 250.62.

 

[codeworks]

to globe trakker, fatboy and plywood, it does suck not being able to do your job. same deal here. not hired for experience, more for filler me thinks. uuugghh!

 

[ICE]

Well since 250.52(A)(3) requires the CEE to be encased in 2" of concrete, the portion stubbed up out of the concrete is no longer an electrode, it becomes a grounding electrode conductor. Violation of 250.62.

Not around here.

 

[pwood]

Well since 250.52(A)(3) requires the CEE to be encased in 2" of concrete, the portion stubbed up out of the concrete is no longer an electrode, it becomes a grounding electrode conductor. Violation of 250.62.

so what do you call that piece of wire that goes from the grounding electrode piece of rebar to the panel? i don't see a violation here,move on.

 

[chris kennedy]

so what do you call that piece of wire that goes from the grounding electrode piece of rebar to the panel? i don't see a violation here,move on.

Why that would be the GEC. Does the rebar stubbed up out of the concrete meet the requirements of 250.52(A)(3) or the requirements of 250.62? Not as the code is currently written. Do I think this is a big issue? No I don't, yet the code says what it says, read carefully then read again.

 

[Gregg Harris]

Well since 250.52(A)(3) requires the CEE to be encased in 2" of concrete, the portion stubbed up out of the concrete is no longer an electrode, it becomes a grounding electrode conductor. Violation of 250.62.

(3) Concrete-Encased Electrode. A concrete-encased electrode shall consist of at least 6.0 m (20 ft) of either (1) or (2):

One or more bare or zinc galvanized or other electrically conductive coated steel reinforcing bars or rods of not less than 13 mm (½ in.) in diameter, installed in one continuous 6.0 m (20 ft) length, or if in multiple pieces connected together by the usual steel tie wires, exothermic welding, welding, or other effective means to create a 6.0 m (20 ft) or greater, length; or

Bare copper conductor not smaller than 4 AWG

Metallic components shall be encased by at least 50 mm (2 in.) of concrete and shall be located horizontally within that portion of a concrete foundation or footing that is in direct contact with the earth or within vertical foundations or structural components or members that are in direct contact with the earth. If multiple concrete-encased electrodes are present at a building or structure, it shall be permissible to bond only one into the grounding electrode system.

Informational Note: Concrete installed with insulation, vapor barriers, films or similar items separating the concrete from the earth is not considered to be in “direct contact” with the earth.

Chris, what part of this determines that the rebar turned upwards and bonded above ground dictates that the vertical section is to be determined to be the "Grounding Electrode Conductor"?

As long as at least 20 feet of it is encased in at least 2 inches of concrete is where the grounding in direct contact with the earth will take place. Nothing precludes that when it exits the concrete it will no longer conduct.

Should we consider a water line in contract with at least 10 feet of earth that where it exits, it then becomes the Grounding Electrode Conductor?

250.70 Methods of Grounding and Bonding Conductor Connection to Electrodes. The grounding or bonding conductor shall be connected to the grounding electrode by exothermic welding, listed lugs, listed pressure connectors, listed clamps, or other listed means. Connections depending on solder shall not be used. Ground clamps shall be listed for the materials of the grounding electrode and the grounding electrode conductor and, where used on pipe, rod, or other buried electrodes, shall also be listed for direct soil burial or concrete encasement. Not more than one conductor shall be connected to the grounding electrode by a single clamp or fitting unless the clamp or fitting is listed for multiple conductors. One of the following methods shall be used:

A pipe fitting, pipe plug, or other approved device screwed into a pipe or pipe fitting

A listed bolted clamp of cast bronze or brass, or plain or malleable iron

For indoor communications purposes only, a listed sheet metal strap-type ground clamp having a rigid metal base that seats on the electrode and having a strap of such material and dimensions that it is not likely to stretch during or after installation

An equally substantial approved means

 

[480sparky]

The problem is that many people don't know that Megger is a brand name synonomous with the term Megaohmeter.

Kleenex

Jell-O

Sheetrock

Aspirin

Linoleum

Thermos

Zipper

Dry Ice

Escalator

Yo-yo

Videotape

Phonograph

Heroin

Cellophane

Laundromat

Mimeograph

Touch Tone

AstroTurf

Crock Pot

Jacuzzi

Photoshop

Q-tip

Super Glue

Muzak

TiVo

Zerox

White-out

Tylenol

Taser

Saran Wrap

Realtor

Jeep

Hula Hoop

Memory Stick

Polaroid

Sharpie

Tupperware

Super Glue

Google

Christmas Seals

Dumpster

Dictaphone

Lava Lamp

Band-Aid

Adrenalin

Jet Ski

Styrofoam

KoolAid

Matchbox

Scotch Tape

Post-It

 

[chris kennedy]

(3)Chris, what part of this determines that the rebar turned upwards and bonded above ground dictates that the vertical section is to be determined to be the "Grounding Electrode Conductor"?

As long as at least 20 feet of it is encased in at least 2 inches of concrete is where the grounding in direct contact with the earth will take place. Nothing precludes that when it exits the concrete it will no longer conduct.

How does the part of the rebar exiting the concrete meet the requirements of a CEE???

Should we consider a water line in contract with at least 10 feet of earth that where it exits, it then becomes the Grounding Electrode Conductor?

You should consider it the GEC and it meets the requirements of 250.62 doesn't it.

250.62 Grounding Electrode Conductor Material. The grounding electrode conductor shall be of copper, aluminum,

or copper-clad aluminum. The material selected shall

be resistant to any corrosive condition existing at the installation

or shall be protected against corrosion. The conductor

shall be solid or stranded, insulated, covered, or bare.

Your water pipe would fit the description of a bare copper conductor would it not?

 

[Dennis]

Well since 250.52(A)(3) requires the CEE to be encased in 2" of concrete, the portion stubbed up out of the concrete is no longer an electrode, it becomes a grounding electrode conductor. Violation of 250.62.

Chris are you saying that I cannot have a 10 foot ground rod that is driven in 9' with one foot sticking out of the ground and my GEC connected to this pipe is not compliant....?

Same scenario... I believe you are incorrect but I will look for the wording when I get a sec

 

[Dennis]

Chris are you saying that I cannot have a 10 foot ground rod that is driven in 9' with one foot sticking out of the ground and my GEC connected to this pipe is not compliant....?Same scenario... I believe you are incorrect but I will look for the wording when I get a sec

It is not in the code but there was an ROP (report on Proposal) that stated this as an response

Panel Statement: Only the portion of an electrode that is in contact with the earth can be called an electrode. The exposed portion of the rebar could be used as a connection point but cannot be considered as the electrode.

 

[Gregg Harris]

How does the part of the rebar exiting the concrete meet the requirements of a CEE??? You should consider it the GEC and it meets the requirements of 250.62 doesn't it.

Your water pipe would fit the description of a bare copper conductor would it not?

It is already listed as a Grounding Electrode under 250.52

250.52 Grounding Electrodes.

(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.

(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductor(s) or jumper(s). if installed.

The conductor shall be solid or stranded, insulated, covered, or bare. It does not say hollow. So in sizing it for the Grounding Electrode Conductor using 250.66 what size would it be listed under?

 

[Francis Vineyard]

250.68 & 250.70 This method has been approved when it is not subject to corrosion.

How often do you see the metal post or columns in basements and garages; including braced wall steel devices taken advantage of as a grounding electrode per 250.52(A)(2) items (2) & (4)?

Francis

 

[ICE]

It is already listed as a Grounding Electrode under 250.52250.52 Grounding Electrodes.

(A) Electrodes Permitted for Grounding.

(1) Metal Underground Water Pipe. A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductor(s) or jumper(s). if installed.

The conductor shall be solid or stranded, insulated, covered, or bare. It does not say hollow. So in sizing it for the Grounding Electrode Conductor using 250.66 what size would it be listed under?

My father worked on a particle accelerator that had copper tubes for conductors. Water was fed through the tubes to keep them from melting.

 

[Gregg Harris]

250.68 & 250.70 This method has been approved when it is not subject to corrosion. How often do you see the metal post or columns in basements and garages; including braced wall steel devices taken advantage of as a grounding electrode per 250.52(A)(2) items (2) & (4)?

Francis Good example of "access" It is hard to tell from the picture, but the bonding conductor should be at the base of the acorn opposite of the set screw.

Francis

Francis Good example of "access" It is hard to tell from the picture, but the bonding conductor should be at the base of the acorn opposite of the set screw. It appears to be on the side.

 

[Francis Vineyard]

Gregg that is correct; can see how the clamp is offset to the side. It was taken from a home inspection forum, my intent was to show acceptance by other AHJ.

A couple of weeks ago I took a picture of a rebar protruding from the top of basement foundation in a townhouse basement with the GEC clamped to it. Apparantly I must have deleted the photo; it was an ugly example because the rebar was bent over instead of cut to length to allow clearance below the floor deck.

Francis

 

[gfretwell]

You are reenacting the debate that I have heard dozens of times about the turned up rebar. That is why I said some AHJs are OK with it

Usually it ends up with what do you do if the copper that was there at the footer inspection, is gone when they come to set the panel. The Ufer is clearly not "available" at that point. You will have trouble making the installer chip up the foundation to get to the rebar (which brings up it's own engineering problems) so you end up with 2 rods, a clearly inferior electrode to the turned up rebar.

That is right up there with "classified breakers" in starting a fight at an IAEI meeting.

 

[pwood]

That is right up there with "classified breakers" in starting a fight at an IAEI meeting.

ground up, ground down:mrgreen:

 

[Darren Emery]

Clearly ground up. And if you think otherwise, you must be a heathen.

 

[pwood]

Mr. Heathen to you, sir!

 

[Francis Vineyard]

Now there's an answer to this dilemma http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=91533

Francis