Ya know, I've suggested ramps a number of times when owners "really rather not have an elevator". Wish someone would try it, they all seem to go with an elevator though.
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How many stories before elevator required?
- Thread starter BayPointArchitect
- Start date
ADAguy
Registered User
It is: logical, fast, allows for deliveries and is down right mean not to provide one but then the code may be the code and then it may not be.
As previously stated, it remains for the owner and its architect to address (and defend) providing or not providing one. Don't blame the inspector, blame the jurisdiction for not mandating one in their code.
As previously stated, it remains for the owner and its architect to address (and defend) providing or not providing one. Don't blame the inspector, blame the jurisdiction for not mandating one in their code.
Is there a limit to a ramp? Could it be practical for getting from the ground to the third floor? Say its a 20 ft vertical change. At 1:12 thats going to need 240 ft of ramp, plus landings.
Oh, I agree that it is impractical. I just wanna see someone try it to see how they approach the ramps/landings.
ADAguy
Registered User
See Gugginheim in NY, Frank did it. Lots of walking, but little maintenance required.
Builder Bob
Sawhorse
Welcome - Generally Rule of Thumb was a maximum of four stories without an elevator. I believe this is designer's choice. Look at 1009.2 and see if this makes a different spin for your question.
Welcome -
Welcome -
BayPointArchitect
Sawhorse
Christian Nielsen
Let me be the fourth of fifth to welcome you to the forum.
When I first posted this question ten years ago, my thinking was a little different that it is today.
And it is still an interesting question.
My current thinking is based on the exceptions provided within the 2010 ADA.
Below is an answer shamelessly stolen from Edward Zwilling. He puts my thoughts into words better than I could ever do.
I've been frequently asked about elevators recently. Not every new construction multi-story building is actually required to have an elevator by the ADA. There are certain exemptions for elevators. The regulation explaining where the ADA does NOT require elevators in new construction is located at 28 C.F.R. 36.401(d) (and is commonly referred to as the "elevator exemption"). In short an elevator is NOT required:
In a facility with less than three stories or which has less than 3000 square feet per story.
This exemption is not absolute and certain types of accommodations or services are nonetheless required to provide an elevator--even if they have less than three stories or less than 3000 square feet per story. There are a few types of facilities that would still be required to have an elevator, as follows:
1. A shopping center or shopping mall (provided sales and rental establishments are not limited to the ground floor only);
2. A professional office of a health care provider (provided such offices are not limited to the ground floor only);
3. A facility that houses a public transportation station, terminal or depot or an airport passenger terminal.
In existing facilities that do not have elevators, but would require them under the new construction guidelines of the ADA had they been constructed more recently, the question becomes whether it is readily achievable to provide an elevator. (See my blog entry entitled What does "Readily Achievable" mean? if you don't already know).
Where it isn't readily achievable to provide an elevator, then the question becomes what reasonable accommodations can be afforded. For example, in a bar with a second floor performance stage, perhaps the stage could be relocated to the ground floor. Or, perhaps closed circuit television screens could be provided on the ground floor so that the show could still be seen (and not only heard) on the ground floor in cases where the ground floor lacked the necessary room for the stage.
In any event, just because a facility may be exempt from the requirement to provide an elevator does not mean that the facility is also exempt from other ADA requirements on upper floors. To the contrary, the elevator exemption specifically provides, "The elevator exemption set forth in this paragraph (d) does not obviate or limit, in any way the obligation to comply with the other accessibility requirements established in paragraph (a) of this section." In other words, but for the lack of an elevator, facilities with multiple stories that meet the elevator exemption, must still be designed and constructed to be readily accessible to and usable by individuals with disabilities in all other regards.
Let me be the fourth of fifth to welcome you to the forum.
When I first posted this question ten years ago, my thinking was a little different that it is today.
And it is still an interesting question.
My current thinking is based on the exceptions provided within the 2010 ADA.
Below is an answer shamelessly stolen from Edward Zwilling. He puts my thoughts into words better than I could ever do.
I've been frequently asked about elevators recently. Not every new construction multi-story building is actually required to have an elevator by the ADA. There are certain exemptions for elevators. The regulation explaining where the ADA does NOT require elevators in new construction is located at 28 C.F.R. 36.401(d) (and is commonly referred to as the "elevator exemption"). In short an elevator is NOT required:
In a facility with less than three stories or which has less than 3000 square feet per story.
This exemption is not absolute and certain types of accommodations or services are nonetheless required to provide an elevator--even if they have less than three stories or less than 3000 square feet per story. There are a few types of facilities that would still be required to have an elevator, as follows:
1. A shopping center or shopping mall (provided sales and rental establishments are not limited to the ground floor only);
2. A professional office of a health care provider (provided such offices are not limited to the ground floor only);
3. A facility that houses a public transportation station, terminal or depot or an airport passenger terminal.
In existing facilities that do not have elevators, but would require them under the new construction guidelines of the ADA had they been constructed more recently, the question becomes whether it is readily achievable to provide an elevator. (See my blog entry entitled What does "Readily Achievable" mean? if you don't already know).
Where it isn't readily achievable to provide an elevator, then the question becomes what reasonable accommodations can be afforded. For example, in a bar with a second floor performance stage, perhaps the stage could be relocated to the ground floor. Or, perhaps closed circuit television screens could be provided on the ground floor so that the show could still be seen (and not only heard) on the ground floor in cases where the ground floor lacked the necessary room for the stage.
In any event, just because a facility may be exempt from the requirement to provide an elevator does not mean that the facility is also exempt from other ADA requirements on upper floors. To the contrary, the elevator exemption specifically provides, "The elevator exemption set forth in this paragraph (d) does not obviate or limit, in any way the obligation to comply with the other accessibility requirements established in paragraph (a) of this section." In other words, but for the lack of an elevator, facilities with multiple stories that meet the elevator exemption, must still be designed and constructed to be readily accessible to and usable by individuals with disabilities in all other regards.
Paul Sweet
Sawhorse
IBC 1104.4 is tougher than ADA. ADA allows multiple upper floors of 3000 SF or less, while IBC 1104.4 limits you to 3000 SF aggregate for all upper floors.
Christian Nielsen
Registered User
Thanks, all! Good group to be in.
I admit to being obstinate... But, while I would advocate for ANY building more than one story to have an elevator (my own "rule of thumb"), it seems to me it is NOT required in multi-family (or even hotel?) construction, as long as there are some accessible units on the ground floor. When the IBC (or ADA?) say "At least one accessible route shall connect each accessible level, including mezzanines, in multilevel buildings and facilities", is is the presence of the elevator that makes those levels "accessible" in the first place. If they are not "accessible", the accessible route is not required. So, if you have an elevator, you need an elevator. If you don't, you don't. Of course this assumes there are no "public accommodations" in those upper floors. I did find the requirement for a SERVICE elevator (for the fire department) when a floor is more than 120' above fire vehicle access.
Obstinately yours, Christian.
I admit to being obstinate... But, while I would advocate for ANY building more than one story to have an elevator (my own "rule of thumb"), it seems to me it is NOT required in multi-family (or even hotel?) construction, as long as there are some accessible units on the ground floor. When the IBC (or ADA?) say "At least one accessible route shall connect each accessible level, including mezzanines, in multilevel buildings and facilities", is is the presence of the elevator that makes those levels "accessible" in the first place. If they are not "accessible", the accessible route is not required. So, if you have an elevator, you need an elevator. If you don't, you don't. Of course this assumes there are no "public accommodations" in those upper floors. I did find the requirement for a SERVICE elevator (for the fire department) when a floor is more than 120' above fire vehicle access.
Obstinately yours, Christian.
Mr. Inspector
SAWHORSE
The code is just the minimum and cheapest way to build it but not the smartest way to build it. Not to many people would be interested in moving into a 20 story apartment with no elevator.
ADAguy
Registered User
Your bar quote is interesting, I found that exact same condition in a recently remodeled bar in Sacramento. You cannot get the same contact experience via a screen that being on the same level provides. It is there fore a discrimination not to have placed the stage on the ground floor.
Mike Schempdoll
Registered User
Properly configured stairs are part of an accessible means of egress. There are a lot of 4 story multi family housing projects with elevators that are not on emergency power. The elevator is provided for the convenience of the resident, but is not part of the accessible means of egress. Assuming the building is NFPA 13 sprinklered, the stairs towers do not have areas of refuge, and the elevator "lobby" has the required call box. When the power fails, the person in a wheel chair calls down to the fire department from the elevator lobby and then goes to a stair tower to wait to be rescued.