Is a Brewery used for a "similar purpose" as a kitchen?

[cda]

While the rear portion was labeled "storage," for practical purposes it is just a receiving area from the overhead alley access door. There may be a pallet or two waiting to get unloaded at any given time, but it will not be a stockroom or storage room in any real sense. Would simply re-labeling that space mitigate any of the present issues?

I think about the only way I would allow it is some barrier between the brewery and area labeled storage and the exit path. It would not have to be full height walls.

 

[ChrisEllis]

I think about the only way I would allow it is some barrier between the brewery and area labeled storage and the exit path. It would not have to be full height walls.

So partial height walls along that path. How about some double swinging half doors to maintain my path from there brewery to the "storage" area? Would a curb along that path be too little?

And do you see a problem with the cooler door swinging into the path of egress as it does?

Any particular issues with the mechanical room you have to pass by to egress?

 

[cda]

So partial height walls along that path. How about some double swinging half doors to maintain my path from there brewery to the "storage" area? Would a curb along that path be too little?

I think the doors would be good, not sure where you might be intending to put them. I think a curb

And do you see a problem with the cooler door swinging into the path of egress as it does?

A little. Appears the walk way is five feet. Not sure how wide the cooler door is?? If it swings more than half of the exit, a little problem.

Any particular issues with the mechanical room you have to pass by to egress?

Not me, you might give the Ahj a rated door with a closing device, if they bring it up.

The other problem area with swing is the personnel door leading from the brewery, right by the stairs going to the rear exit?? Just wonder why it is even there?

To me it is the totality of what you are walking through and a some what unclear path with chances to wonder.

 

[north star]

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ChrisEllis,

I will also chime in with what **cda** has stated, ...it's the

"totality of what will be attempted to be navigated" in an

emergency that is troubling for me.......The sprinkling of the

building would not lessen that issue..........Add to the

navigation issue would be the [ potential ] intoxication

level of some of the patrons.

What is total calculated Occupant Load for the space ?

Are the total number of plumbing fixtures in each Restroom

absolutely necessary ?..............IMO, ..that one Walk In

Cooler Area next to the Bar would be the location for

another Egress Door........Can you remove 1 - 4 person table

& 1 - 1 person seat in front of the Bar, ...move the Bar

Area forward and install an Exit Door between the Bar

Area and the Walk In Cooler ?

While I was looking at your floor plan, I noticed that

there is a "removable door to access the Gas Meter" inside

the building [ at the front corner ] , ...is that typical ?

Also, ...in your dish cleansing area w \ a Dishwasher,

...will there be an adequately sized Grease Interceptor

installed [ somewhere ] to capture the F.O.G. wastes

[ <---- that's the plumber coming out in me ]

FWIW, ...kudos to the Building Dept. for raising their

concerns also, and catching the "problematic" Exit thru

the Rear Area.

If I had input, I would vote for installing the 2nd MOE

to another location up front somewhere.

Also, ...no disrespect intended on this one, but the

"amount of costs" is not my concern........My primary

concern is the safety of the occupants........If it takes

moving the various spaces and utilities and other around

to accommodate and facilitate a more safe environment,

then that is what it is........Again, ...no disrespect intended

to you, AND "thank you" for coming to this Forum

with your questions & plans.........This is what we do here !



~ ~ $ ~ ~

 

[steveray]

There is no "passes near" in the code, only "passes through"....If the egress can be maintained by floor striping or worst case 1/2 walls, I think I would be good. Although I would have to see the rest of the building...

 

[mtlogcabin]

• 
  036-14 CD 4 Plan A.2.pdf (208.4 KB, 17 views)
  

Clink on the link and you can see the whole building

I would be okay with it if there are some 1/2 demising walls or maybe chain barriers along with a well lit and identified egress signage path through the area.

The brewery area is not a kitchen for the preparation of food.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Fair enough. However Chapter 10, TABLE 1012.4 of the International Existing Building Codes defines F-2 as the lowest hazard area.

If this is an existing building then the IEBC is what you should be using.

The IEBC does not address intervening space unless it is a higher hazard category which then sends you to Chapter 10 of the IBC

912.4.1 Means of egress for change to higher hazard category.

When a change of occupancy classification is made to a higher hazard category (lower number) as shown in Table 912.4, the means of egress shall comply with the requirements of Chapter 10 of the International Building Code .

I believe under the IEBC you are fine with your design

 

[ChrisEllis]

What is total calculated Occupant Load for the space ?

209

IMO, ..that one Walk In Cooler Area next to the Bar would be the location for another Egress Door........

Unfortunately, my building abuts buildings on both sides.

While I was looking at your floor plan, I noticed thatthere is a "removable door to access the Gas Meter" inside

the building [ at the front corner ] , ...is that typical ?

Not generally typical, but my building is 105 years old. All of the buildings on my block have their gas meters inside. I have contacted the local gas company about moving it outside, but it seems that since all of the buildings on my block end at the front property line, they aren't interested in dealing with encroachment... and there is no gas supply available from the rear of the building.

Also, ...in your dish cleansing area w \ a Dishwasher,...will there be an adequately sized Grease Interceptor

installed [ somewhere ] to capture the F.O.G. wastes

Yes, a grease trap is planned.

Also, ...no disrespect intended on this one, but the"amount of costs" is not my concern........My primary

concern is the safety of the occupants........

Absolutely no disrespect taken. I am extremely appreciative of your input. Safety is my utmost concern as well. Given that everything is over budget so far, I just want to find a way to ensure occupant safety without wasteful spending.

 

[cda]

209 ol??? Seems high

Are you going by sq ft or tables and chairs??

Ol does not matter because 2nd exit is required,

Sounds like a set down with the ahj is best. Take all your options and see which one flys!!!!

 

[ChrisEllis]

If this is an existing building then the IEBC is what you should be using.The IEBC does not address intervening space unless it is a higher hazard category which then sends you to Chapter 10 of the IBC

912.4.1 Means of egress for change to higher hazard category.

When a change of occupancy classification is made to a higher hazard category (lower number) as shown in Table 912.4, the means of egress shall comply with the requirements of Chapter 10 of the International Building Code .

I believe under the IEBC you are fine with your design

This was my original argument to the city. They didn't go for it, and there's only so much head-butting I want to do when their safety concerns are valid---if not to the letter of the code.

When I purchased the building there was a non-sprinkled walled corridor from the assembly area to the rear exit. I argued that the non-sprinkled corridor, as an accessory to an A-2 occupancy, was a higher hazard than a sprinkled F-2 room per IEBC Chapter 10, Table 1012.4. I do, however, concede that while technically a lesser hazard area, there are additional hazards that are presented.

 

[cda]

Just thinking out loud

I have a hypothetical restaurant that seats 300 and for whatever reason I have a F-2 attached to it and I want to run one exit through it??? Hum lets see what a F-2 can be

SECTION 306 FACTORY GROUP F

306.1 Factory Industrial Group F. Factory Industrial Group F occupancy includes, among others, the use of a building or structure, or a portion thereof, for assembling, disassembling, fabricating, finishing, manufacturing, packaging, repair or processing operations that are not classified as a Group H hazardous or Group S storage occupancy.

306.3 Factory Industrial F-2 Low-hazard Occupancy. Factory industrial uses that involve the fabrication or manufacturing of noncombustible materials which during finishing, packing or processing do not involve a significant fire hazard shall be classified as F-2 occupancies and shall include, but not be limited to, the following:

Beverages: up to and including 16-percent alcohol content

Brick and masonry

Ceramic products

Foundries

Glass products

Gypsum

Ice

Metal products (fabrication and assembly)

 

[mtlogcabin]

Just thinking out loudI have a hypothetical restaurant that seats 300 and for whatever reason I have a F-2 attached to it and I want to run one exit through it??? Hum lets see what a F-2 can be

SECTION 306 FACTORY GROUP F

306.1 Factory Industrial Group F. Factory Industrial Group F occupancy includes, among others, the use of a building or structure, or a portion thereof, for assembling, disassembling, fabricating, finishing, manufacturing, packaging, repair or processing operations that are not classified as a Group H hazardous or Group S storage occupancy.

306.3 Factory Industrial F-2 Low-hazard Occupancy. Factory industrial uses that involve the fabrication or manufacturing of noncombustible materials which during finishing, packing or processing do not involve a significant fire hazard shall be classified as F-2 occupancies and shall include, but not be limited to, the following:

Beverages: up to and including 16-percent alcohol content This would be a micro brewery which could be accessory to a bar or eating establish. I agree it would be best not to go through the F-2 but Ii don not see a prohibition in the IBC or IEBC

Brick and masonry

Ceramic products

Foundries

Glass products

Gypsum

Ice

Metal products (fabrication and assembly)

 

[cda]

306.3 Factory Industrial F-2 Low-hazard Occupancy. Factory industrial uses that involve the fabrication or manufacturing of noncombustible materials which during finishing, packing or processing do not involve a significant fire hazard shall be classified as F-2 occupancies and shall include, but not be limited to, the following: Beverages: up to and including 16-percent alcohol content This would be a micro brewery which could be accessory to a bar or eating establish. I agree it would be best not to go through the F-2 but Ii don not see a prohibition in the IBC or IEBC

Brick and masonry

Ceramic products

Foundries

Glass products

Gypsum

Ice

Metal products (fabrication and assembly)

I agree to a point of how the exit path is designated through an area.

 

[ChrisEllis]

I am attaching a rough version of a new layout. This flips the brewing area to the other side and provides a fully walled in corridor to the exit. I don't have AutoCAD, so I've been using Photoshop to do my tweaking. I apologize for the hack-job. Not all of the doors are necessarily in the best place or with the appropriate swing, but they're close. And there will be some sort of door at the entrance to keep wanderers from getting into trouble out of sight. I think I may put that in the hands of the ahj to tell me where he thinks it best.How does this look to everyone? Am I on the right track?And thanks again to everyone for your input.

View attachment 1154

View attachment 1154

/monthly_2015_03/new_layout.jpg.60ea62f41c89dc5f979ea5a0d5e1a4bf.jpg

 

[cda]

I can live with that!!!!

 

[north star]

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ChrisEllis,

Thanks for your input, and your patience with us.

The revised layout is much improved........As has been

recommended, ...schedule a meeting with the AHJ,

and let them provide you some guidance........Suggest

that you hold the revised floor plan until you have

had some discussion with them........If they are still

concerned about the "proposed" Egress path passing

thru the rear, ...ask for guidance [ i.e. - get a feel

of what they are wanting ].

Having buildings on both sides sure doesn't leave

you many options.

Lots of emergency lighting, ...exit signs and

maybe even some floor striping might sway

them, ...in your faintsee "new" & improved

floor plan. :mrgreen:

~ + ~ + ~

 

[Msradell]

Looking 8t your plans something else came to mind especially since we don't know where you are located. What is the AHJ going to say about the steps going to the rear entrance/exit in regards to accessibility issues? Most areas only require one exit to be handicapped accessible but some areas have different requirements, it's obviously something it needs to be considered especially with the gas meter located near the front of house.

 

[Frank]

With self closing rated doors and 1 hr corridor would definitely meet unammended IBC

 

[cda]

With self closing rated doors and 1 hr corridor would definitely meet unammended IBC

Building is sprinkled

 

[ChrisEllis]

Looking 8t your plans something else came to mind especially since we don't know where you are located. What is the AHJ going to say about the steps going to the rear entrance/exit in regards to accessibility issues? Most areas only require one exit to be handicapped accessible but some areas have different requirements, it's obviously something it needs to be considered especially with the gas meter located near the front of house.

This has been a concern of mine as well. My architect checked with the city's head plans examiner, and then again when I got a bit itchy about it. He was told by the plans examiner that it was not necessary. Nonetheless, fingers remained crossed.

 

[cda]

Ok remember to send us a grand opening notice!!

I like to collect glasses from different breweries

 

[ChrisEllis]

Ok remember to send us a grand opening notice!!I like to collect glasses from different breweries

You've got yourself a deal!

 

[steveray]

Our code has no provisions for accessible egress in existing buildings

 

[mtlogcabin]

1007.1 Accessible means of egress required.

Accessible means of egress shall comply with this section. Accessible spaces shall be provided with not less than one accessible means of egress . Where more than one means of egress are required by Section 1015.1 or 1021.1 from any accessible space, each accessible portion of the space shall be served by not less than two accessible means of egress .

Exceptions:

1. Accessible means of egress are not required in alterations to existing buildings