Is secondary exit required for a room on ground floor which is a bedroom of secondary suite in basement

[sunyaer]

I have to add that there are 3 bedrooms on second floor.

 

[ICE]

(this is in contrast to our American friends on this board, as the most specific applies in their case)

It seems to me that twenty-five posts later, the Canadians haven't reached a consensus on a question the Americans answer in two.

 

[sunyaer]

This is the front view of the house. If these two windows are egress windows, a person has to jump on to the roof of the porch or garage, also, I don't see the possibility that a person can squeeze through the windows to escape in a fire, is an egress window compliant with code like that?

 

[tmurray]

It seems to me that twenty-five posts later, the Canadians haven't reached a consensus on a question the Americans answer in two.

This is the problem with the Ontario Building Code. It is built on the 1995 version of the national code and there were serious changes between the 1995 national version and the 2005 version. This has resulted in there being compounding differences between the two. However, there have been steps taken recently to return to a national code base, so we will see.

 

[tmurray]

This is the front view of the house. If these two windows are egress windows, a person has to jump on to the roof of the porch or garage, also, I don't see the possibility that a person can squeeze through the windows to escape in a fire, is an egress window compliant with code like that?

View attachment 10573

Egress windows must have a minimum overall area and have minimum dimensions to ensure someone can squeeze through the window. There is no requirement restricting how high an egress window is above the adjacent grade.

 

[Paul Sweet]

Casement windows should have a release in the operator so the window can be swung fully open. It is often a clip on the end of the arm, and isn't obvious if you're not looking for it.

Egress windows (Emergency Escape and Rescue Openings in the International Residential Code) are for firemen to put a ladder up to the window and climb into the house to rescue occupants, or for a person to wait at the window for a fireman to put up a ladder. The CABO One & Two Family Dwelling Code has required them in the US since the 1970s.

 

[sunyaer]

No, there is no interaction between 9.9.9. and 9.9.10.

9.9.9. is specific requirements related to egress from dwelling units as a whole. ..,

In contrast, 9.9.10. deals specifically with egress from bedrooms, typically located within a dwelling. …

I summarize this as follows:

For a house with 3 storeys, even there is no bedroom on the third floor, an egress window is still required. On second floor if there is no bedroom, an egress window is not required. If there is bedroom(s) on second floor, an egress window is required. On ground floor, if there is a doorway exiting directly to outside world, bedrooms on this floor do not need egress window.

 

[ICE]

On ground floor, if there is a doorway exiting directly to outside world, bedrooms on this floor do not need egress window.

That is awful. Legal or not, no right thinking person would go along with that.

 

[tmurray]

I summarize this as follows:

For a house with 3 storeys, even there is no bedroom on the third floor, an egress window is still required\

No. If there is no bedroom an egress window is not required. An exit is required on this floor, or the floor below per 9.9.9.1.(1) (an egress window is not considered an exit. See 9.9.2.1. for acceptable types of exits).

On second floor if there is no bedroom, an egress window is not required.

Correct. No bedroom means no egress window and since it has access to an exit on the storey below, no exit is required on that storey.

If there is bedroom(s) on second floor, an egress window is required.

Correct.

On ground floor, if there is a doorway exiting directly to outside world, bedrooms on this floor do not need egress window.

Correct. The egress window can be eliminated, but only in Ontario. In the rest of Canada, an egress window would still be required in the bedrooms.

 

[tmurray]

That is awful. Legal or not, no right thinking person would go along with that.

Agreed. I'm glad this is a local amendment only.

 

[sunyaer]

No. If there is no bedroom an egress window is not required. An exit is required on this floor, or the floor below per 9.9.9.1.(1) (an egress window is not considered an exit. See 9.9.2.1. for acceptable types of exits).

What I meant was in a typical house of 3 storeys where there is typically only the interior stairway for going up or down. Ontario Building Code: 9.9.9.1. - Travel Limit to Exits or Egress Doors
(1) Except as provided in Sentences (2) and (3), every dwelling unit containing more than 1 storey shall have exits or
egress doors located so that it shall not be necessary to travel up or down more than 1 storey to reach a level served by,
...

In this case, there are two ways to meet the code requirement:

1. third storey window opening minimum GGO mm wide and minimum 1 000 mm high with sill maximm 1 000 mm above the floor
2. when balcony is installed on the floor, the window reuirement is waived

Am I correct?

 

[sunyaer]

Typo: 1. third storey window opening minimum 550 mm wide

 

[tmurray]

What I meant was in a typical house of 3 storeys where there is typically only the interior stairway for going up or down. Ontario Building Code: 9.9.9.1. - Travel Limit to Exits or Egress Doors
(1) Except as provided in Sentences (2) and (3), every dwelling unit containing more than 1 storey shall have exits or
egress doors located so that it shall not be necessary to travel up or down more than 1 storey to reach a level served by,
...

In this case, there are two ways to meet the code requirement:

1. third storey window opening minimum GGO mm wide and minimum 1 000 mm high with sill maximm 1 000 mm above the floor
2. when balcony is installed on the floor, the window reuirement is waived

Am I correct?

Correct.

 

[Inspector Gadget]

That is awful. Legal or not, no right thinking person would go along with that.

This is one of the challenges to the Canadian Codes - provinces have been allowed to go and make their own codes, and in some cases, the end result is confusing.
For example, I'm supposedly nationally mobile - I'm certified to inspect Part 9 buildings across the country. Yet BC and Ontario have different tweaks to their codes.
As Tmurray stated, there are efforts to unify, and they can't come quickly enough.

 

[sunyaer]

Just a memo for this thread, ser this discuss in post #12

Re: Building code question : bedroom egress​

05-24-2022, 09:22 AM
Clarification from the building department, City of Timmins : the Ontario code is as it reads. With one door to the exterior there are no egress windows required on that floor.

cheers

Building code question : bedroom egress - Canadian Woodworking and Home Improvement Forum

When reading the Ontario Building Code, the requirement for bedroom egress contains the following language : I assume this to mean that if I have a door to the exterior anywhere on the same floor as the bedrooms, that I do NOT require specially sized windows in the bedrooms on that floor...

forum.canadianwoodworking.com

 

[ICE]

Well then, you have established that there is huge mistake in your code. Just because you can do something doesn't mean that it's a good idea. There's still plenty of lawn darts in use....

Here is a better code:
R310.1 Emergency escape and rescue opening required.
Basements, habitable attics and every sleeping room shall have not less than one operable emergency escape and rescue opening. Where basements contain one or more sleeping rooms, an emergency escape and rescue opening shall be required in each sleeping room. Emergency escape and rescue openings shall open directly into a public way, or to a yard or court that opens to a public way.

Exceptions:
1. Storm shelters and basements used only to house mechanical equipment not exceeding a total floor area of 200 square feet (18.58 m2).
2. Where the dwelling or townhouse is equipped with an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section P2904, sleeping rooms in basements shall not be required to have emergency escape and rescue openings provided that the base-ment has one of the following:

2.1. One means of egress complying with Sec- tion R311 and one emergency escape and rescue opening. 2.2. Two means of egress complying with Sec- tion R311.

 

[tmurray]

Well then, you have established that there is huge mistake in your code. Just because you can do something doesn't mean that it's a good idea. There's still plenty of lawn darts in use....

Here is a better code:
R310.1 Emergency escape and rescue opening required.
Basements, habitable attics and every sleeping room shall have not less than one operable emergency escape and rescue opening. Where basements contain one or more sleeping rooms, an emergency escape and rescue opening shall be required in each sleeping room. Emergency escape and rescue openings shall open directly into a public way, or to a yard or court that opens to a public way.

Exceptions:
1. Storm shelters and basements used only to house mechanical equipment not exceeding a total floor area of 200 square feet (18.58 m2).
2. Where the dwelling or townhouse is equipped with an automatic sprinkler system installed in accordance with Section P2904, sleeping rooms in basements shall not be required to have emergency escape and rescue openings provided that the base-ment has one of the following:

2.1. One means of egress complying with Sec- tion R311 and one emergency escape and rescue opening. 2.2. Two means of egress complying with Sec- tion R311.

The rest of the codes in Canada do require an egress window in the bedroom. It is just this province that has changed the requirements.

I certainly agree with you, this is not a modification to the code that I would support.

 

[chief-inspector]

The rest of the codes in Canada do require an egress window in the bedroom. It is just this province that has changed the requirements.

I certainly agree with you, this is not a modification to the code that I would support.

And sometime in the past the contractors managed to lobby the code committees to eliminate the need for an egress window if a door lead nebulously to an exit..