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Joist & TGI issue

Discussion in 'Residential Structural Codes' started by jpmartz, Nov 4, 2019.

  1. Mark K

    Mark K Platinum Member

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    Be honest when you quote somebody.
     
  2. steveray

    steveray Sawhorse

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    Mark,
    I assume you mean me? I do not have a budget to hire any consultants. The burden of proof of compliance is on the applicant/ contractor. They hire and pay for the engineer to fix their mistakes, not my department. That was not trying to twist your words, just making it more relevant for the rest of the world outside of cali or very large municipalities. Bad side, I kinda have to swallow whatever their engineer throws at me as long as I can see that they used proper practice and values as we can not review their calcs. If I suspect something fishy, I do have some people I can call.....
     
    my250r11 and rktect 1 like this.
  3. Min&Max

    Min&Max Silver Member

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    Contact your material supplier. They can take a picture and send to manufacturer for evaluation. Manufacturer will provide info on how to properly repair. I have instilled into all contractors that removing material from engineered lumber is a mortal sin and that a manufacturers fix is required no matter how little they remove.
     
  4. Nearly-Complete

    Nearly-Complete Registered User

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    This is absolutely not necessary. I am an engineer and I believe I can do a better job when I focus on calculating than spending time drawing. However, I do agree that the engineer should be working closely with the drafter to ensure accuracy, and everything must be well calculated and designed.

    On the other hand, I received a letter last week for an as-built, for an unpermitted building, from an engineer that was one sentence stating the structure was adequate with zero backup. Additionally, the applicant accidentally emailed the signed contract which stated the engineer was writing the letter for $500 and released liability even in the case of negligence. I responded with a one sentence letter requesting calculations.
     
    ADAguy likes this.
  5. Mark K

    Mark K Platinum Member

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    You can quote me and you can disagree with me but DO NOT misquote me.

    Compliance is an obligation of the building owner not the contractor. If the contractor has done something not in compliance it is between the Owner and to Contractor to sort it out but ultimately the Owner's responsibility to provide to the local jurisdiction a compliant design and a building that complies with the construction documents..

    When an engineer or an architect prepares construction documents and because of a non-compliance a fix is needed the fix needs to be approved by the original architect or engineer or else by another engineer or architect who takes responsibility for the project. An unsigned fix from a manufacture may be interesting but has no legal standing. If the manufacturer has its fix signed by an engineer this is still of no interest to the building official unless the manufacturer's engineer is taking responsibility for the project. You need signoff by the architect or engineer who prepared the approved construction documents.

    The building code requires the building department to perform a review of the application. If you do not have the budget to hire the consultants or qualified staff that is your problem. You still have an obligation to fulfill your duties. Note that engineers and architects cannot use the fact that their fee was not large enough to do a proper job as an excuse. I suggest you increase your permit fees.

    Building officials have created a model building code that does not differentiate between big cities and more rural jurisdictions. Please note that California does have a number of rural jurisdictions and while some of them may be challenged my guess is that they still tend to do a better job that much of the rest of the country. I suggest that the rest of the country could do better although I suspect that this will be threating to some.

    One way jurisdictions have of performing an adequate review is to contract with an engineering firm to provide a review on a project by project basis.

    I agree developing a fix is not the responsibility of the building department but review of the change for code compliance is the responsibility of the building official.
     
  6. tmurray

    tmurray Sawhorse

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    It sounds like you are saying most RDPs are negligent and need to undergo a more detailed review.

    We have established case law here, and I would imagine the same exists in your litigious environment, that states it is reasonable for building officials to rely on third party RDPs where it would cause undue financial hardship on the local government agency to require they provide these services.
     
  7. Ty J.

    Ty J. Sawhorse

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    Ok, so let me put this before you Mark....

    Let's say, as it was never clarified by the OP, that the house is built prescriptively and lacks any engineering design. If that is the case, whom is responsible to design and approve the fix?

    Per the code sections I provided, the IRC provides direction to follow the manufacturers guidelines. Manufacturer provides guidelines for specific "common" repairs. Building Inspector can require that the manufacturers guidelines for the repair be on site for inspection of the fix, but what more is necessary?

     
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  8. Mark K

    Mark K Platinum Member

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    It is the Owner, not the Contractor, who is responsible for providing the information needed to resolve the problem.

    You are suggesting that the original design was exempt from the state licensing laws. What do the state licensing laws say? I do not care what the IRC says since it is the state licensing laws that determine when an engineer is required. In California certain residential buildings do not need an engineer or an architect as long as they comply with certain conditions. Repairs of a damaged joists are not covered by the exemption, thus an engineer or architect is needed in California.

    I believe you are reading the IRC provisions regarding manufacturers guidelines too liberally.

    Since I doubt the manufacturer recommended cutting the flange I would suggest that it was the intent of the IRC that a registered design professional, registered in the state where the project is located, be responsible for the design of the fix..
     
    jar546 likes this.
  9. jar546

    jar546 *****istrator

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    As an inspector, if there were damage to a TJI, even if the contractor were to provide me the attached documentation, I would still require a registered design professional to sign off on the actual repair design, even if they used the sheets from the manufacturer because the sheets from the manufacturer are for engineered lumber and the attached sheets are not stamped by an engineer. See attached.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. tmurray

    tmurray Sawhorse

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    Are you as a building official empowered to enforce the state licencing laws?

    Because someone damages a joist halfway through construction, an architect or engineer is required for a whole building? What reasonably diligent professional is going to sign off on a building that they had no part in designing and is mostly constructed?
     
  11. Ty J.

    Ty J. Sawhorse

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    Washington (my state) does not require design professionals where constructed per the IRC. Wanna build per the IBC, get a design professional.

    If you want to base your world views on how things are done in California, good luck....California is a hot mess of regulations and bureaucratic red-tape.
     
  12. ADAguy

    ADAguy Sawhorse

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    Maybe so but you have EQ's and fires in Washington too.
     
  13. Mark K

    Mark K Platinum Member

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    I understand that California bashing is the favorite sport of some.

    I recognize that the rules vary in different states and that I cannot keep track of all the variations. It is also my observation that it is common on this forum for individuals responses to be influenced by their state rules. So I suggest you broaden your criticism to include those other individuals.

    There is also a problem with understanding the limits of the IRC. The IBC through its reference standards provides a framework for addressing issues such as the repair of a damaged truss. The IRC does not provide this framework thus I suggest that when faced with an unusual situation that the appropriate thing is to realize that there are limits to the IRC and look to the IBC. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe the IRC contains provisions allowing the use of the IBC.

    We need to realize the limits of the IRC.
     
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