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Joist & TGI issue

Discussion in 'Residential Structural Codes' started by jpmartz, Nov 4, 2019.

  1. jpmartz

    jpmartz Registered User

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    My plumber put a groove in out joist and TGI to run plumbing to the tub, I know this isn’t up to code. Could this be a problem and if so what is the fix? The tub is already in.
     
  2. Ty J.

    Ty J. Sawhorse

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    Welcome... can you please clarify and or post a photo? To post a photo, you must do it via a link or be a paid member.
     
  3. Ty J.

    Ty J. Sawhorse

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  4. e hilton

    e hilton Bronze Member

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    It can be a serious problem. Did they cut a hole in the middle web? Or cut th3 top or bottom flange? Cutting the flange can render the joist completely useless. Only solution is to engage an engineer to evaluate and recommend a fix. If the house us still under construction, have them replace it.
     
  5. Ty J.

    Ty J. Sawhorse

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    A bit alarmist there....

    The only solution is not to engage an engineer. TJI and the other I-joist manufacturers all provide bulletins for how to complete repairs for damage to their respective joists. See my post above for TJI's bulletin on top chord fixes.
     
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  6. e hilton

    e hilton Bronze Member

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    Maybe.
    I was not aware of that technical bulletin. Interesting. A huge number of restrictions on when it applies, the two most important being: top flange only, and only half the width of the flange. Most plumbers are not that careful.
     
  7. ICE

    ICE Sawhorse

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    If the project was engineered the engineer shall be the one to choose the repair. While it can be a canned fix from the manufacturer, the engineer makes that call...not the contractor, owner or inspector.
     
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  8. TheCommish

    TheCommish Sawhorse

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    If the manufacturer is commin up with specifications, the problem must be rampant, it is a shame that tradesmen think nothing of cutting up the structure of a building
     
  9. Mark K

    Mark K Platinum Member

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    Not an alarmist at all. The joist may be worthless.

    If there is any violation of code which is not resolved by making it comply with the code then an engineer or architect must be involved with designing the fix. The joist manufacturer does not have the authority to modify the code by issuing a recommendation. While such a recommendation may be interesting and suggest a solution the code does not give the manufacturer the ability to redefine the code.

    Any building department that does not have an engineer on staff capable of evaluating a fix needs to hire an engineer as a consultant.

    Plumbers are notorious for cutting wood members in such a way as to make them useless. On one project the contractor had a rule that the plumber or electrician was not allowed to have a chain saw on the job site. This says a lot about the prevalence of these problems.
     
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  10. tmurray

    tmurray Sawhorse

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    I would disagree somewhat on this. These floor joists are engineered systems with stamped designs. We see repair details from the manufacturer of these systems all the time, again, stamped by an in-house engineer. We do not view the repair details as "recommendations" since they are an engineered repair detail.

    I am assuming that this is not a Canada only thing...
     
  11. steveray

    steveray Sawhorse

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    Sign of the failing industry....we used to lay out the framing the miss the plumbing elements where possible....As most "builders" don't actually know how to build....
     
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  12. fatboy

    fatboy Administrator

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    I'm with tmurray, we just tell the contractor to contact the manufacturer for an engineered fix, and they would.
     
  13. Ty J.

    Ty J. Sawhorse

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    What code violation has been made; I am not aware of a code section that relates to engineered lumber requiring a engineer for every fix? If you want to be grounded in the code, then here is what the code actually provides:

    R502.1.2 Prefabricated Wood I-Joists
    Structural capacities and design provisions for prefabricated wood I-joists shall be established and monitored in accordance with ASTM D5055.

    and

    R502.8.2 Engineered Wood Products
    Cuts, notches and holes bored in trusses, structural composite lumber, structural glue-laminated members, cross-laminated timber members or I-joists are prohibited except where permitted by the manufacturer's recommendations or where the effects of such alterations are specifically considered in the design of the member by a registered design professional.
    You have stated that "The joist manufacturer does not have the authority to modify the code by issuing a recommendation." But the code says the exact opposite as highlighted by the red font above. Design by a registered professional is an alternative, but is not required by the code.

    And your opinion that every department must have an engineer, is your opinion. I am not a licensed engineer, yet I reject close to 1/3 of first reviews on engineered plans, mostly because of calculation errors made by the engineer. Just because someone has a license, does not mean that they are competent; and inversely, just because someone doesn't have a license, doesn't mean that they are incompetent.


    This callous approach to requiring a design professional on anything atypical is a plague among building departments that really needs to stop. Be grounded in the code, do what the code intends, and do not add arbitrary requirements that the code does not support. Requiring an engineer because you don't know better is ridiculous.
     
    #13 Ty J., Nov 5, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2019
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  14. e hilton

    e hilton Bronze Member

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    Sorry, I disagree, but it might be semantics. The mfgr clearly shows allowable knockout in the joists, where the contractor can freely make penetrations without impacting the design capabilities of the joist. If the contractor should cut the joist outside of those allowances, the joist is compromised. The mfgr has recognized the volume of noncompliant cuts has has preemptively published a document with vary narrow instructions for field repairs. The mfgr does not permit cutting of the flanges, but if the cut meets certain parameters they have a ready solution.

    If ICE saw joists installed with no modifications, he would issue a green tag (well, maybe, if he was feeling benevolent). But if he saw cuts, he would want to see a doc from the mfgr that proscribed the repair. Or h3 would want to see a doc from an engineer.
     
  15. Mark K

    Mark K Platinum Member

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    I hope this group realizes that we are a country of laws not a country ruled by autocrats and kings. This fact is reflected in our constitution. One of the most important constitutional provisions is that due process be followed. This means that the laws, including building codes, must be adopted following due process and must be approved by an appropriate legislative body.

    When the IBC or the IRC contains a provision that appears to give legislative powers to a building official or a private entity, such as a manufacturer, this creates a conflict with the US and I suggest most state constitutions. When there is a conflict between the building code and the constitution this means that the building code provision has been improperly adopted and is thus unenforceable. Are building officials willing to consider the possibility that not every part of the building code is enforceable?

    In response to the position that engineers are “…a plague among building departments…” I will point out that in California it is law that the person in a building department making engineering judgements must be a registered engineer or architect.

    If a manufacture provides a fix signed by an engineer licensed in the state where the project is located this satisfies the need for a licensed engineer. Still the fix is a change to the construction documents which would require that the architect or engineer who prepared them must consent to the change. This is not something that can be resolved solely between the building official and the manufacturer.
     
  16. jar546

    jar546 *****istrator

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    I hear what you are saying and for the most part, I agree. Emphasis on "for the most part." The US Constitution always takes precedence over building codes that may have been illegally adopted or enforced, however, the judgement of an inspector or building official, whether or not they are a registered design professional is more than legal and appropriate if they accept an engineered fix from the manufacturer in lieu of a local engineer. There cannot be a prescriptive fix for all situations with engineered lumber, therefore if the manufacturer shows a fix, it must be applicable to the specific situation and I would only accept a fix from the manufacturer if it was signed by an engineer licensed in the state. I have had contractors show me a span chart for I-Joists but not a plan from the manufacturer and I rejected it. I need a design for the assembly, not just the span table for you to do it by yourself.

    There is a big difference between fixing an I-joist that has a 4' span and having a cut or notch 3' from the end on a 22' span. Again, each repair has to be specific to the situation at hand. Mark, I understand you are not pro inspector or plans examiner unless they are an architect or engineer, much the same way I think that if you sign and seal drawings, you should be the one who drew them and not some apprentice, draftsman or contractor asking you to seal them.
     
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  17. ADAguy

    ADAguy Sawhorse

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    In defense of MH, as if he needs one, "it depends", each situation must be evaluated on its specific conditions. 99% of the time you may be correct jar but there is that one time when by someone overlooking/sidestepping the result can lead to unintended consequences; ie: both the Florida bridge failure and the SF beam fracturing though designed by engineers, failed because of improper procedures or ignoring reported obvious signs of weakness.
     
  18. Rick18071

    Rick18071 Sawhorse

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    :D funny
     
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  19. steveray

    steveray Sawhorse

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    Fixed it!
     
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  20. Ty J.

    Ty J. Sawhorse

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    Took me a moment, but I like it Steveray. ;)
     

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