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Kitchen remodel

The state that I am in, I did electrical work in a region where the localities were fairly strict (this is where they would require a whole room be brought up to code, vs. just updating one circuit or something like that). Other parts of the state don't go to those extremes.

With adding cabinets, there are 3 different situations that would affect it.

1) A homeowner installs his/her own cabinets. And I guess this is the case I was thinking of. I don't know how it's done in other states, but here you don't need a permit to install cabinets. So if a homeowner adds counterspace doing a renovation job he/she is allowed to do without a permit, even if the code current to that house requires outlets, it's silly for someone who buys a house or an inspector to look at it after the fact and say they were required to add outlets. The way I see it, that homeowner did a home project he/she was allowed to do without a permit.

2) The house was built before countertop outlets were required. In my state we hold houses to the building code standard of the year they were built. So if a house is renovated with much older codes, that house only has to meet or exceed the outlet requirements of that code.

3) There is a job that has a permit, and the house is new enough that it was built under current countertop outlet requirements. In this case, any kitchen renovation work would have to continue to meet those standards.

Another thing I have never understood is how many cabinet guys act oblivious to the island receptacle requirements.
 
mfichter80 said:
The state that I am in, I did electrical work in a region where the localities were fairly strict (this is where they would require a whole room be brought up to code, vs. just updating one circuit or something like that). Other parts of the state don't go to those extremes.
Click to expand...

The question is, do they have the legal authority to require upgrades or do people just "kiss the ring"?
 
steveray said:
The question is, do they have the legal authority to require upgrades or do people just "kiss the ring"?
Click to expand...

True that. And there were a few inspectors in those localities that told contractors that they should get in the habit of challenging their bosses on stuff like that.
 
without the time to research now I am wondering if anyone knows when the NEC introduced the countertop spacing rules we have today
 
If they relocate the sink and existing outlets were not GFIC they should be changed, no?
The spacing of the outlets takes into account the plug length on appliances, you don't want them using extension cords or dangling over sinks.
Consider that in older houses that adding outlets may require a service or panel upgrade or that the older wiring is incompatable with todays; knob n tube, conduit, romex, aluminum, etc. Needed to upgrade my original (1905) 30a to a 200a service when we remodeled.
 
If you stand directly in the center of two receptacles, and they are spaced the maximum permitted distance of 12’ apart, then you find that you are 6’ from either receptacle, on each side of you, and that meets the minimum requirement, as it is written. On the other hand, if you place one receptacle in the center of a wall that is 12’ in length, you have met the minimum requirement as well
 
mfichter80 said:
1) A homeowner installs his/her own cabinets. And I guess this is the case I was thinking of. I don't know how it's done in other states, but here you don't need a permit to install cabinets. So if a homeowner adds counterspace doing a renovation job he/she is allowed to do without a permit, even if the code current to that house requires outlets, it's silly for someone who buys a house or an inspector to look at it after the fact and say they were required to add outlets. The way I see it, that homeowner did a home project he/she was allowed to do without a permit.
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Since we've reopened this thread, I thought I would throw my two cents in on the above quoted comment. Our administrative code regarding permit exemption for the IRC says "this section shall not be construed to exempt such activities from other applicable requirements of this code." IRC R105.2 says basically the same thing. Although exempt from permit, the work done is not exempt from code. If countertops are installed by an ambitious homeowner, they are not exempt from providing the required receptacles for those countertops. Homeowners are not exempt from knowing code requirements, even if their proposed work does not require a permit. How would they know they didn't need a permit if they didn't read it in a code or were told by someone with alleged code knowledge that they didn't need one? Of course there's always going to be someone who doesn't think they need a permit for anything, residential or commercial.
 
Norcal said:
No pre-inspection to establish what is existing, then they get to bring it up to current code? I could see the howling over that though.

.After spending all that money for cabinets & countertops, why would they not want the additional convenience of more receptacles on the counter? Seems foolish to me not too, just my opinion.
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"Flippers" don't care and they watch too many DIY shows.
 
When we adopted the 2012 IRC I removed the cabinet replacement exemption, because most of our homes are over 100 years old and kitchen remodels, where cabinets are replaced usually entail electrical and or plumbing remodeling.
We are currently working on amendments for adopting the 2018, I intend to insert a sentence requiring that kitchen countertop receptacles be upgraded to meet our current code when new kitchen cabinets are installed.
I want safe, code compliant work done. This is our opportunity to see that properly spaced GFCI protected receptacles and fire alarms are installed, both are proven life savers.
 
I was going to let this sit since it's old and the last bump is an ad, but I can't.

If someone is replacing cabinets and/or counters and that's all they're doing, your professional conversation with them shouldn't ever go anywhere beyond "No permit is required, have a nice day, sir/ma'am".
 
JCraver said:
I was going to let this sit since it's old and the last bump is an ad, but I can't.

If someone is replacing cabinets and/or counters and that's all they're doing, your professional conversation with them shouldn't ever go anywhere beyond "No permit is required, have a nice day, sir/ma'am".
Click to expand...
Actually, since the adopted codes in our village/city are amended to remove section 105.2 from the code, we have to keep asking questions. As such, when they remove the cabinetry and countertop, we usually find out that they need to do plumbing work for the new sink and faucet.

Permit required.

And since the cabinetry and countertops were removed, the countertop outlet spacing is upgraded not to mention two 20 amp circuits and GFCI and each appliance on its own separate.

We even ask questions that lead us to then require hard wired smoke detectors be installed throughout the entire home plus C02.
 
Why CO2? Now I can't open my beer without an alarm going off.:)
I think you mean carbon MOnoxide. That would be CO.
 
rktect 1 said:
Actually, since the adopted codes in our village/city are amended to remove section 105.2 from the code, we have to keep asking questions. As such, when they remove the cabinetry and countertop, we usually find out that they need to do plumbing work for the new sink and faucet.

Permit required.

And since the cabinetry and countertops were removed, the countertop outlet spacing is upgraded not to mention two 20 amp circuits and GFCI and each appliance on its own separate.

We even ask questions that lead us to then require hard wired smoke detectors be installed throughout the entire home plus C02.
Click to expand...
What??? No AFCI.
 
I can understand both sides of the issue. My department falls in the do nothing category. If the scope of work is just cabinets and counter a kitchen remodel can skate by with no permits at all. Sure the sink is new, an exhaust fan was installed, receptacles were replaced and a few can lights are illuminating the new dishwasher.

Any single one of those would hardly get me interested. Put them all together and....well this is America....the land of the brave, the bold....oh! and we are free too.

As to the "do nothing category" ....if we could get away with just collecting the money.....think about that....a cashier is all it would take....we would be all over that.
 
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rktect 1 said:
Actually, since the adopted codes in our village/city are amended to remove section 105.2 from the code, we have to keep asking questions. As such, when they remove the cabinetry and countertop, we usually find out that they need to do plumbing work for the new sink and faucet.

Permit required.

And since the cabinetry and countertops were removed, the countertop outlet spacing is upgraded not to mention two 20 amp circuits and GFCI and each appliance on its own separate.

We even ask questions that lead us to then require hard wired smoke detectors be installed throughout the entire home plus C02.
Click to expand...

What version of the code(s) are you on, and what other amendments did you do? Why (I'm seriously curious) did you remove 105.2, and did you replace it with anything?
 
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