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Latch vs. Exit Device

It has to be an automatic door operator in order to eliminate the strike side clearances. The door needs to open and close automatically. Just electrically releasing the latched condition will do nothing for this requirement. This cannot be the first time that you have heard of, or seen school construction be done not to code compliance? That is normal practice for LAUSD from what I have seen.
 
mtlogcabin said:
A person with a broken foot will not approach the door in a wheelchair head on or angle in from the side of the injury. Same with someone in a wheelchair with one arm or hand. The 12 inches is strictly to allow maneuvering clearances on a door with a closure and a latch due to the difficulty in opening a door with both. Unlatching the door is not the only operation required to get through the door when using a wheelchair, cane or walker.
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I agree 100% with your example... but how does one push open a door in this instance if the door does not have a latch at all, but has a closer, and does not have the 12" space? Keep in mind that an exit device is much like an electrified actuator that dislodges the strike from an accessible location, namely any part across the surface of the door. I would think that an exit device would allow for this said individual the convenience of approaching the door either head on of from any angle, even possibly backing one's wheelchair into the device to disengage it from the jamb. Your example actually supports my logic by using an exit device in lieu of a double-lever device, the 12" maneuverability space is not needed in order to open the door.
 
JPohling said:
It has to be an automatic door operator in order to eliminate the strike side clearances. The door needs to open and close automatically. Just electrically releasing the latched condition will do nothing for this requirement. This cannot be the first time that you have heard of, or seen school construction be done not to code compliance? That is normal practice for LAUSD from what I have seen.
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So then you are saying that providing an electric strike that allows the door to simply be pushed open is not an acceptable application? How does a door in a public restroom that only has push/pulls and a closer without the 12" of side clearance get away without the use of an Automatic Door Operator. Essentially adding an actuator & electrified strike that allows for the door to simply be pushed open is no different that a door with only a push plate on it.
 
Gizmo said:
So then you are saying that providing an electric strike that allows the door to simply be pushed open is not an acceptable application? How does a door in a public restroom that only has push/pulls and a closer without the 12" of side clearance get away without the use of an Automatic Door Operator. Essentially adding an actuator & electrified strike that allows for the door to simply be pushed open is no different that a door with only a push plate on it.
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Yes an electric strike without an automatic door opener does not solve the clearance issue, the door still has a closer and a latch.
 
JPohling said:
The specific terms that your industry has bestowed on the individual hardware pieces has nothing to do with this issue. This issue is completely about accessibility. The powers that be have determined that when a door is "latched" and you also need to overcome the resistance of a "closer", then this additional maneuvering space is required to allow disabled individuals to execute the operation of the door. Is it a rated door? then your latch and closer is required. If not rated then you can remove either the latching mechanism or the closing device and eliminate the requirement. An automatic door operator can also solve the issue. If your door is recessed greater than 8" then you do have limited options. Your "exit device" for these purposes is simply a latch. Sorry, but no one with authority at DSA will bless your concept.
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Please explain why an "Automatic Door Operator" resolves the issue of not having the "additional maneuvering space"?
 
Frank said:
Yes an electric strike without an automatic door opener does not solve the clearance issue, the door still has a closer and a latch.
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What is this code requirement for a door with a push/pull and a closer?
 
cda said:
There are certain aspects of the site, that are open to card paying members.This site was developed and has been run by an individual. The site had grown to the point it needs funding to keep it going.

http://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/website-discussion/13061-we-need-sawhorses.html

There is a lot of knowledge and as you see most questions do have an answer
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Thanks CDA, I had just found this forum yesterday and I just paid/donated for a year. I am seeing how valuable and insightful this website can be. Although it appears that I am being argumentative, I assure you that I am just trying to logically understand the letter of the law. Not just be a sheep and blindly travel along a path of illogical rhetoric. I was taught along time ago that we must question the intention if it seems wrong. I feel as if I am a goldfish swimming amongst the great whites. =)
 
Frank said:
Yes an electric strike without an automatic door opener does not solve the clearance issue, the door still has a closer and a latch.
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What is the requirement to activate an Automatic Door Opener?
 
Gizmo....You may want to look for ICC/ANSI 117 commentary or if ADA has some narrative as to the intent...I see where you are coming from, but I try not to ignore code just because I don't know all of the reasoning behind it.....Or you could submit a code change.....
 
^^ I do not understand your question? what requirement? If the door opens and closes automatically with the push of a button on both sides of the door then there is really no need to provide the required strike side clearances or door operating pressures that are required when trying to operate the door from a wheelchair.
 
Gizmo said:
What is this code requirement for a door with a push/pull and a closer?
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There is no strike side clearance required from the push side of a door if the door is not equipped with both a latch and a closer. eliminate either one and the push side clearance is eliminated as well. Do you have a copy of the 2013 California Building code?
 
Since I'm in Canada, I can't speak for the intent of this section. However, Canadian codes have the same requirement. The way we were taught how to interpret this requirement was an accessibility expert took us to a door with a self closer and told us to try to open the door by pushing on the panic bar on the latch side of the door and then try to open it from the hinge side of the door. We then tried it again while sitting in a wheel chair. Opening it from the hinge side is hard, opening it from the hinge side while sitting in a chair with wheels on it is near impossible. Opening the door from the latch side is comparatively easy. The 12" is required for maneuvering into position to open the door, that's why a power opener eliminates the requirement. Also, our code does not reference a latch, just door opening.
 
Gizmo said:
Thanks CDA, I had just found this forum yesterday and I just paid/donated for a year. I am seeing how valuable and insightful this website can be. Although it appears that I am being argumentative, I assure you that I am just trying to logically understand the letter of the law. Not just be a sheep and blindly travel along a path of illogical rhetoric. I was taught along time ago that we must question the intention if it seems wrong. I feel as if I am a goldfish swimming amongst the great whites. =)
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No problem at all ask away till it is totally mud in your mind!!!

We like to argue with each other anyway, keeps our old minds from turning to jellyo
 
JPohling said:
^^ I do not understand your question? what requirement? If the door opens and closes automatically with the push of a button on both sides of the door then there is really no need to provide the required strike side clearances or door operating pressures that are required when trying to operate the door from a wheelchair.
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What I'm getting at is that in order to use this automatic door operator, you must push something to activate it, right? If you can't push an exit device push pad to unlatch the door from the jamb, how can one push an actuator that makes the automatic door opener work. If you are assuming that someone in a wheelchair has the ability to push something to allow the door to operate as if it does not have either a closer or latch, then you must agree that pushing an ADA compliant pushpad on an exit device to render the door unlatched, like a door with a push/pull, is no different than pushing an actuator which essentially eliminates the closer aspect of the issue. One eliminates the latching aspect of the door, whereas the other eliminates the closer aspect.
 
Gizmo said:
What I'm getting at is that in order to use this automatic door operator, you must push something to activate it, right? If you can't push an exit device push pad to unlatch the door from the jamb, how can one push an actuator that makes the automatic door opener work. If you are assuming that someone in a wheelchair has the ability to push something to allow the door to operate as if it does not have either a closer or latch, then you must agree that pushing an ADA compliant pushpad on an exit device to render the door unlatched, like a door with a push/pull, is no different than pushing an actuator which essentially eliminates the closer aspect of the issue. One eliminates the latching aspect of the door, whereas the other eliminates the closer aspect.
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No because when you push the door opener button the door opens and stays open after you let go of it to move the chair. When you let go of the exit device the door relatches.
 
tmurray said:
Since I'm in Canada, I can't speak for the intent of this section. However, Canadian codes have the same requirement. The way we were taught how to interpret this requirement was an accessibility expert took us to a door with a self closer and told us to try to open the door by pushing on the panic bar on the latch side of the door and then try to open it from the hinge side of the door. We then tried it again while sitting in a wheel chair. Opening it from the hinge side is hard, opening it from the hinge side while sitting in a chair with wheels on it is near impossible. Opening the door from the latch side is comparatively easy. The 12" is required for maneuvering into position to open the door, that's why a power opener eliminates the requirement. Also, our code does not reference a latch, just door opening.
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So if your Canadian code basically states that you need the 12" whether or not you have a latch, only if you have a closer, than this thread would be a moot point. It would be required on all doors with a closer. That is not the issue here in the USA. Pushing a door open with an Exit Device is no different than pushing a door open without one. What is different is if you add a double-lever latch to the equation, now you must get to within a few inches of the edge of door to disengage it with the jamb in order to open it.
 
Frank said:
No because when you push the door opener button the door opens and stays open after you let go of it to move the chair. When you let go of the exit device the door relatches.
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The reason the door opens and stays open is to allow the person in the wheelchair to navigate to the door and travel through it. Once you push the exit device and dislodge the strike from the strike plate, you're clear to proceed through the opening that you have already began pushing open. Once the door has been pushed open even an 1/4" the strike cannot relatch, assuming that your opening pressure complies with the 5lbs. The pad on the exit device is not for pushing the door open, it's for manually unlocking the door, much like the actuator does on the door operator.
 
Lets assume for a minute that you could do what your describing and a BO would allow this. (never gonna happen) and now your operating the door from the center of the panic device on the door. now you have a 5lb maximum operating pressure issue that you cannot comply with.
 
From the commentary that MT linked......Good find, didn't know that was there...

Doors equipped with only a closer or a latch (but not both) are not required to have the 12-inch (305 mm) maneuvering space. The additional maneuvering space requirement is based on the fact that the user needs to exert more force and perform a combination of movements to open doors that have both a latch and a closer. A door that has a latch but no closer can be opened by disengaging the latching mechanism and pushing with the hand, with the door remaining open during passage. A door that has a closer but no latch can be pushed open by the momentum of the user without requiring additional hand or arm movement. Typically, this is accomplished by pushing the door open with the feet and footrest. For a door that has both a latch and a closer, the user must perform all of these movements simultaneously, which requires additional maneuvering space. Figure 404.2.3.1(b) illustrates the requirements for this type of door use.
 
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