Latch vs. Exit Device

[steveray]

Lets assume for a minute that you could do what your describing and a BO would allow this. (never gonna happen) and now your operating the door from the center of the panic device on the door. now you have a 5lb maximum operating pressure issue that you cannot comply with.

Not if you are left handed.......

 

[Gizmo]

Try this linkhttp://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icc/ansi/2003cc/a117p1/icc_ansi_2003cc_a117p1_4_par006.htm

Great illustrations... again, it proves that the authors and illustrators imply that a "Latch" is a double-lever device, not including an exit device. Keep in mind that the authors and illustrators of the code know the difference as described in the same code books where they detail that an exit device cannot protrude more than 4" beyond the surface of the door. They do not refer to it as a "Latch". Throughout these code books, whenever they describe a Latch, that includes an illustration, they do not draw an exit device. Yet when they refer to an exit device, the illustrator displays his competence by drawing a bar that clearly portrays an exit device.

If one of the authors of this particular code where to read this thread and post that the intent and letter of the law explicitly describes a Latch as a Double-Levered Device, as portrayed in ALL of the illustrations, then what argument would you make to disprove his comment?

 

[steveray]

So does this mean we can not have a fire exit device on a fire rated door..............?

715.4.8.1 Latch required. Unless otherwise specifically permitted, single fire doors and both leaves of pairs of side-hinged swinging fire doors shall be provided with an active latch bolt that will secure the door when it is closed.

 

[Frank]

See definitions given in code below; fire exit hardware is a type of panic hardware that is a "door latching assembly"

No one person writes the codes. Code change proposals are submitted by hundreds of people, reviewed by committees and voted on by assemblies. The text controls over the illustrations. Like it or not a fire exit or panic device is considered a latch by the IBC that references the ICC/ANSI A117.1

 

[Gizmo]

So does this mean we can not have a fire exit device on a fire rated door..............?715.4.8.1 Latch required. Unless otherwise specifically permitted, single fire doors and both leaves of pairs of side-hinged swinging fire doors shall be provided with an active latch bolt that will secure the door when it is closed.

This code implies that the door must be latching... it has nothing to do with access compliance. "... an active latch bolt that will secure the door..." The context of the code cannot be overlooked... in this instance the requirement is that the fire door must latch. The context of the code requiring the 12" is not so clear. Hence why I am constantly asking why 12" side clearance would be required if the exit device allows the door to operate as a push/pull by just pushing at any point across the surface of the door.

 

[Frank]

This code implies that the door must be latching... it has nothing to do with access compliance. "... an active latch bolt that will secure the door..." The context of the code cannot be overlooked... in this instance the requirement is that the fire door must latch. The context of the code requiring the 12" is not so clear. Hence why I am constantly asking why 12" side clearance would be required if the exit device allows the door to operate as a push/pull by just pushing at any point across the surface of the door.

No it does not, on a push pull the door can be opened by pushing the wheelchair footrest against the required 10 inch high kickplate area at the bottom of the door without pushing anywhere else on the door.

 

[cda]

What I'm getting at is that in order to use this automatic door operator, you must push something to activate it, right? If you can't push an exit device push pad to unlatch the door from the jamb, how can one push an actuator that makes the automatic door opener work. If you are assuming that someone in a wheelchair has the ability to push something to allow the door to operate as if it does not have either a closer or latch, then you must agree that pushing an ADA compliant pushpad on an exit device to render the door unlatched, like a door with a push/pull, is no different than pushing an actuator which essentially eliminates the closer aspect of the issue. One eliminates the latching aspect of the door, whereas the other eliminates the closer aspect.

The button is normally away from the door, on a wall.

Like this;;;

http://jimlindlauf.areavoices.com/2011/12/15/dont-bump-the-button/

 

[Gizmo]

Can mag-locks be used on a door opening without the 12" side clearance. As in a case of a storefront, lets say for example in the lobby of a bank. The door has a self-closer and a Magnetic Lock. This could be construed as a "Latch" since it latches the door closed. Yet during business hours, the mag-lock is disabled allowing handicap customers and employees to use the door as if it has a push/pull. Since the door does have a push and pull on it as well as a closer, according to the code, there is no 12" side clearance required.

 

[Gizmo]

No it does not, on a push pull the door can be opened by pushing the wheelchair footrest against the required 10 inch high kickplate area at the bottom of the door without pushing anywhere else on the door.

So then how does this person open the door with a levered lockset but no closer?

 

[steveray]

That would be a lock....not a latch....IMHO

Can mag-locks be used on a door opening without the 12" side clearance. As in a case of a storefront, lets say for example in the lobby of a bank. The door has a self-closer and a Magnetic Lock. This could be construed as a "Latch" since it latches the door closed. Yet during business hours, the mag-lock is disabled allowing handicap customers and employees to use the door as if it has a push/pull. Since the door does have a push and pull on it as well as a closer, according to the code, there is no 12" side clearance required.

 

[Gizmo]

The button is normally away from the door, on a wall.

Is there a requirement that the button/bar must be away from the door? Is there a requirement that states that it cannot be installed on the surface of the door? Assuming the actuator is installed in a spot accessible by the person in the wheelchair, if the actual door surface is accessible, couldn't the device be installed there, between 34"-44" AFF?

 

[Gizmo]

That would be a lock....not a latch....IMHO

So then using this logic, a Lock is not a Latch, and therefore can be used as a work-around for the 12" requirement?

I love a good spirited debate ;-)

 

[cda]

Is there a requirement that the button/bar must be away from the door? Is there a requirement that states that it cannot be installed on the surface of the door? Assuming the actuator is installed in a spot accessible by the person in the wheelchair, if the actual door surface is accessible, couldn't the device be installed there, between 34"-44" AFF?

I do not know

But there is also the wiring for the device, so maybe another reason it is found on a wall

 

[Frank]

So then how does this person open the door with a levered lockset but no closer?

pullup to door unlatch and push open then reposition to glide thorugh the door.

No closer the unlatched and opened door stays open.

No latch you can push the door open with footrest.

Larch and closer the damn thing keeps closing and latching on you as you try to reposition from reaching the door with chair angled so can reach past footrest to the unlatiching device on the door (lever or panic bar) to pointing through the door to push foot rest against it to pass through. Reaching past footrest in front of chair is difficult to impossible. Also cannot have hand on door lver or panic bar while rolling both wheels with both hands.

 

[Gizmo]

I can see that this discussion falls under the category of, "I can't give you a logical reason why... it just is how it is". Half the posts in this thread pose no logical reason to why a panic device requires the 12" side clearance, with the commenter giving no valid explanation as to why they feel that a "Latch" is no different than a Panic. Where the strike is dislodged from the jamb allowing the door to open freely is the key to logically answering this paradigm. A actuator located at an accessible location is no different than the push pad on the exit device. The other half of the posts just dismiss this topic as, "... it's just the way it is, no explanation needed".

I have another real-life paradigm that has come up at another school... I will post a new thread and get the logical debate going again. I've successfully argued it's merits logically and caused a much heated debate amongst CASp and DSA inspectors. Be patient my new friends... :cheers

 

[Safecrackin Sam]

Is there a requirement that the button/bar must be away from the door? Is there a requirement that states that it cannot be installed on the surface of the door? Assuming the actuator is installed in a spot accessible by the person in the wheelchair, if the actual door surface is accessible, couldn't the device be installed there, between 34"-44" AFF?

A156.19 on Low energy operators which covers most handicap access requires the activating button be located one to five feet from the door, accessible from the swing, and not in the path of the door swing. Walls are the normal option since they comply.

 

[Gizmo]

pullup to door unlatch and push open then reposition to glide thorugh the door. No closer the unlatched and opened door stays open.

No latch you can push the door open with footrest.

Larch and closer the damn thing keeps closing and latching on you as you try to reposition from reaching the door with chair angled so can reach past footrest to the unlatiching device on the door (lever or panic bar) to pointing through the door to push foot rest against it to pass through. Reaching past footrest in front of chair is difficult to impossible. Also cannot have hand on door lver or panic bar while rolling both wheels with both hands.

So a panic device with a delayed latching strike is acceptable to you? What about a panic bar with a breakaway strike. This type doesn't actually retract the bolt but actually releases it, when the bar is pushed, so it swivels out of the way when the door is pushed open. It stays in this unlatched mode for a set period of time. Then when the door self-closes, relatches itself. So the code allows for this device as an exception to the rule? Where can I find this exception?

As I keep reiterating... if the 12" is not for unlatching the levered device, then it must be for pushing a self-closing door open. But if the door doesn't have a latch and only a closer, the 12" isn't required. So then the 12" isn't for pushing the door open... it must be for unlatching the door. In your explanation, how does providing the 12" help with a door with a levered latch from continuously closing and self-latching while the person in the wheelchair keeps trying to maneuver through the opening. Basically, in your rebuttal, explain how providing this 12" somehow prevents a door from repeatedly latching if the door is equipped with a levered device, and the person in the wheelchair lets go of the door hardware to grab his wheels and maneuver away from the immovable 12" of wall space to the 32" clear space through the door? The code writers obviously know that a person in a wheelchair must be able to negotiate a lever, push the self-closing door open, and maneuver their wheelchair with the extra 12" side clearance. Allowing a person in a wheelchair to navigate to the actuator of the exit device, the push-bar, eliminates the need of the extra 12" and therefore makes the process easier to maneuver.

 

[Gizmo]

A156.19 on Low energy operators which covers most handicap access requires the activating button be located one to five feet from the door, accessible from the swing, and not in the path of the door swing. Walls are the normal option since they comply.

Does it state that it cannot be installed on the door if the door is in an accessible location in the wall?

 

[cda]

http://www.riversideca.gov/building/pdf/DisabledAccessDrawings/disabled-doors-accessible.pdf

To accommodate left and right handed people?

 

[cda]

Check page 11/12

Maybe gives person easier movement through the door??

http://www.accessibilityonline.org/Archives/Materials/FY2011/2011-06-02_Accessible_Doors_Maneuvering_Clearances_2_Sides_per_page.pdf

 

[cda]

Page 5 the answer similar to last post

http://www.ada.gov/errors.pdf

 

[Safecrackin Sam]

Does it state that it cannot be installed on the door if the door is in an accessible location in the wall?

That would be less than one foot from the door and place the activating switch in the door swing.

 

[JPohling]

On the door is not 1' from the door. obviously could not be on the pull side. Believe me, I would love to have the ability to eliminate push side clearances by adding a panic bar. I have fought that battle many times over the years. Wheelers approach and pass thru doorways in a very specific series of operations. I am sure many wheelers could get thru the panic device without the clearance, but it requires a different approach and until they specifically allow it as an exception your not able to have it approved as such.

 

[cda]

HOMEWORK assignment

Stand in front/ middle of a door that swings towards you---- unlatch the door and pull------- what happens?

Stand in front/ middle of a door that swings away from you------ unlatch the door and push------- what happens?