Lock question

[cda]

2. In buildings in occupancy Group A having an occupant load of 300 or less, Groups B, F, M and S, and in places of religious worship, the main exterior door or doors are permitted to be equipped with key-operated locking devices from the egress side provided:

Can you also use a thumb latch in lieu of the key lock???

 

[fatboy]

We have interpreted not, it specifically states key-operated. Prevents unauthorized personnel from locking the door when it shouldn't be locked.

 

[cheyer]

Ditto.....the intent is that management etc. would be the only one with keys ....otherwise any one could lock the door

 

[LGreene]

I agree - the key cylinder puts the control of the lock with a responsible party (hopefully).

 

[mark handler]

I agree - the key cylinder puts the control of the lock with a responsible party (hopefully).

The same responsible parties....

 

[RJJ]

I agree with the above comments!

 

[FM William Burns]

Well we would approve the "thumb turn" since it is recognized in today's society as a un-locking device. The way we look at this allowance is that we don't want someone to jam something into the lock, break off a key in "panic" or have some disgruntle ex-employee having a key and create a situation where in any type of emergency; the door could be compromised.

PS

Love that cartoon MH of the Triangle Shirt-Waste Incident.....use it often in my instruction.

 

[fatboy]

I'm more worried about a disgruntled customer, or would-be criminal, are just pranksters throwing the lock. JMHO

 

[mark handler]

I'm more worried about a disgruntled customer, or would-be criminal, are just pranksters throwing the lock. JMHO

The thumb latch is typically on the side of the door you are exiting from, not to. JMHO

 

[fatboy]

Of course, but in a panic mode, folks are going to hit the door without even thinking about having to throw a thumb latch. Again JMHO, but that's why the code specifically calls out a key-operated lock.

 

[mark handler]

Key-operated lock, another bad idea in the code.

But if you read the code is does say

"....provided:2.1. The locking device is readily distinguishable as locked;

2.2. A readily visible durable sign is posted on the egress side on or adjacent to the door stating: THIS DOOR TO REMAIN UNLOCKED WHEN BUILDING IS OCCUPIED. The sign shall be in letters 1

inch (25 mm) high on a contrasting background; and

2.3. The use of the key-operated locking device is revokable by the building official for due cause.

"So there will be noone inside right, NOT.......

 

[mark handler]

DOOR TO REMAIN UNLOCKED WHEN BUILDING IS OCCUPIED.

Triangle Shirt-Waste Incident

 

[mark handler]

The Station nightclub had the signs that the doors shall remain unlocked....

Cant regulate stupid.....

 

[fatboy]

I actually hate that section of code myself, terrible exception. All I'm saying is that MY interpretation is that it only allows a key-operated lock, that's the way it is written.

 

[mark handler]

I actually hate that section of code myself, terrible exception. All I'm saying is that MY interpretation is that it only allows a key-operated lock, that's the way it is written.

The code allows, but does not require

are permitted to be equipped

that's the way it is written.

It does NOT disallow thumb-latches, it allows key locks with conditions

 

[fatboy]

To each his own, I've heard/seen it go either way. Even this thread is split.

 

[cheyer]

I actually hate that section of code myself, terrible exception. All I'm saying is that MY interpretation is that it only allows a key-operated lock, that's the way it is written.

The code allows, but does not require

are permitted to be equipped

that's the way it is written.

It does NOT disallow thumb-latches, it allows key locks with conditions

Keep in mind 1008.1.9.3 does say "approved" locks and latches.....I also do not approve thumbturns....especially because the higher end glass doors always seem to have the thumbturns on the very bottom

 

[mark handler]

Keep in mind 1008.1.9.3 does say "approved" locks and latches.....I also do not approve thumbturns....especially because the higher end glass doors always seem to have the thumbturns on the very bottom

So your saying this is safer than a thumb latch?

 

[cheyer]

I personally do....given a panic situation, where bodies have the potential to stack...it could be next to impossible to flip the thumbturn back open if someone either purposely or on accident locks it ....I would find this less likely to happen with keyed hardware and keys with responsible employees.....but maybe that's just me

 

[FM William Burns]

In addition to my earlier post; I am a long time student of human behavior in fire and panic situations and have made many code proposals (some successfully) concerning egress including but not limited to the now acceptable use of photoluminescient materials meeting the UL standard and low level exit markings. Regarding our allowance for "thumb turns" they meet and have met all code provisions where applicable for decades. In addition, we would have an issue with the glass door pictured. I do respect other opinions that may differ from our stance on the use of "thumb turns" and our acceptance is only due to our studies and the allowance (where applicable) in all the codes.

 

[RJJ]

Would either lock key or thumb meet ADA?

I have a set of doors just like the ones Mark posted. It was a hard decision fro me to allow them.

 

[cda]

Sorry girls and guys did not mean to make you labor so hard on labor day

Just it came up in another ahj and not sure if the owner heard correctly

But out a key lock on outside, with open/close indicator, and a blank on inside, along with signage

Like I said not sure if owner heard wrong, or if that is what the ahj wanted

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

Would either lock key or thumb meet ADA?I have a set of doors just like the ones Mark posted. It was a hard decision fro me to allow them.

I have often wondered the same thing about accessibility with a thumb-latch or key lock. Does anyone know why the the 4"x4" paddles aren't used anymore, especially when panic fire exit hardware is not a requirement (I know the code says where installed, but couldn't the paddle be seen as similar to a lever handle and not a panic device)?

 

[beach]

No thumb turns for us, we haven't had any problems with them NOT keeping the door unlocked while the building is occupied, but there have been problems with people entering stores (typically convenience stores), locking the door behind them (thumb turn) and rounding up the employees and patrons......

Similar threads end up the same way this will....... to each his own.