New sign on existing building

[Mr. Inspector]

Is the designer required to say what method they are using in the IEBC when replacing or adding a sign on the outside of an existing building?

 

[steveray]

For a sign, I would have no problem assuming something....probably work area....

 

[mtlogcabin]

The IEBC does not address exterior signage installation or replacement. The IBC has some language in Chapter 32 but mostly in Appendix H. Because of our seismic zone and the brick material used in the older buildings we require an engineer design for the attachment to the building.

3202.3 Encroachments 8 feet or more above grade.
Encroachments 8 feet (2438 mm) or more above grade shall comply with Sections 3202.3.1 through 3202.3.4.

3202.3.1 Awnings, canopies, marquees and signs.
Awnings, canopies, marquees and signs shall be constructed so as to support applicable loads as specified in Chapter 16. Awnings, canopies, marquees and signs with less than 15 feet (4572 mm) of clearance above the sidewalk shall not extend into or occupy more than two-thirds the width of the sidewalk measured from the building. Stanchions or columns that support awnings, canopies, marquees and signs shall be located not less than 2 feet (610 mm) in from the curb line.

 

[SCBO1]

Zoning would most likely regulate the sign, NEC code for the signs wiring, and IBC for attachments or manufactures specifications.

 

[steveray]

The designer doesn't need to ....the applicant does:

301.3 Alteration, Addition or Change of Occupancy​

The alteration, addition or change of occupancy of all existing buildings shall comply with one of the methods listed in Section 301.3.1, 301.3.2 or 301.3.3 as selected by the applicant. Sections 301.3.1 through 301.3.3 shall not be applied in combination with each other.

Of course the designer should have done it or it is not likely to pass plan review....

 

[ICE]

The alteration, addition or change of occupancy of all existing buildings shall comply with one of the methods listed in Section 301.3.1, 301.3.2 or 301.3.3 as selected by the applicant. Sections 301.3.1 through 301.3.3 shall not be applied in combination with each other.

I wonder what you folks are talking about with IEBC. What complications beyond a UL Listing and means of securing the sign are you referring to? What's up with the mental gymnastics for a sign permit?

 

[mtlogcabin]

Adding or replacing a sign is not within the scope of the IEBC.

[A] 101.2 Scope.
The provisions of this code shall apply to the repair, alteration, change of occupancy, addition to and relocation of existing buildings.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Adding or replacing a sign is not within the scope of the IEBC.

[A] 101.2 Scope.
The provisions of this code shall apply to the repair, alteration, change of occupancy, addition to and relocation of existing buildings.

Yes, and if you look at the definitions of "repair," "alteration," "change of occupancy," and "addition," where do you find anything that would include an exterior, building-mounted sign in its scope?

 

[steveray]

Yes, and if you look at the definitions of "repair," "alteration," "change of occupancy," and "addition," where do you find anything that would include an exterior, building-mounted sign in its scope?

Right about here:

[A] ALTERATION. Any construction or renovation to an existing structure other than a repair or addition.

 

[mtlogcabin]

[A] ALTERATION. Any construction or renovation to an existing structure other than a repair or addition.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Yes, and if you look at the definitions of "repair," "alteration," "change of occupancy," and "addition," where do you find anything that would include an exterior, building-mounted sign in its scope?


Seems plain to me that adding a sign is an alteration. What else would it be?

 

[SCBO1]

Alteration Level 1, Level 2 or Level 3?

Section 503 Alterations

Signs are not mentioned in the IEBC however they are listed in Appendix H if adopted.

 

[mtlogcabin]

And where would you find any requirements in the IEBC for what is required to meet code?

When the IEBC is silent on a specific subject then you need to move to a code that would be applicable.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Yes, and if you look at the definitions of "repair," "alteration," "change of occupancy," and "addition," where do you find anything that would include an exterior, building-mounted sign in its scope?


Seems plain to me that adding a sign is an alteration. What else would it be?

What else would it be? A sign. In over 50 years of practice I have never encountered a sign being construed as an alteration. It's a sign.

 

[steveray]

And where would you find any requirements in the IEBC for what is required to meet code?

When the IEBC is silent on a specific subject then you need to move to a code that would be applicable.

701.2 Conformance​

An existing building or portion thereof shall not be altered such that the building becomes less safe than its existing condition.

[BS] 706.2 Addition or Replacement of Roofing or Replacement of Equipment​

Any existing gravity load-carrying structural element for which an alteration causes an increase in design dead, live or snow load, including snow drift effects, of more than 5 percent shall be replaced or altered as needed to carry the gravity loads required by the International Building Code for new structures.

 

[steveray]

And 302.4 has some good stuff too....

302.4 New and Replacement Materials​

Except as otherwise required or permitted by this code, materials permitted by the applicable code for new construction shall be used. Like materials shall be permitted for repairs and alterations, provided that unsafe conditions are not created. Hazardous materials shall not be used where the code for new construction would not permit their use in buildings of similar occupancy, purpose and location.

[BS] 302.4.1 New Structural Members and Connections​

New structural members and connections shall comply with the detailing provisions of the International Building Code for new buildings of similar structure, purpose and location.
Exception: Where alternative design criteria are specifically permitted.

 

[SCBO1]

Appendix H if adopted

Appendix H of the IBC, needed to clarify that.

 

[ICE]

The discussion includes IEBC with Alterations of Level this and Level that, IBC with Appendix H. What are the ramifications of the opposing opinions?

As I recall, when inspecting signs I referred to the UL Listing and the plans that show how the sign is anchored to the wall. That used to be neon signs and there’s plenty to know about the electrical systems involved with neon but not much when it comes to the attachment to the building. The sign industry has mostly abandoned neon in favor of LED.

The usual mistake was not sealing the holes from the last sign….. other than that, where does it go off the rails? Seems to me that this thread is a hurricane in a margarita pitcher.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

If they are running a new wire through the store for the sign wouldn't that be an alteration?

 

[SCBO1]

I would have not considered that as an alteration and issued the permit for the circuit IMO.

 

[JPohling]

uhhh ohhh we just changed the style of our address numbers................better apply for a permit