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Now that we have a designer forum

mtlogcabin said:
What you are allowed to do in your state applies only to your state. Where the IRC says an engineered design then you better be an engineer.R106.1 Submittal documents.

Submittal documents consisting of construction documents , and other data shall be submitted in two or more sets with each application for a permit. The construction documents shall be prepared by a registered design professional where required by the statutes of the jurisdiction in which the project is to be constructed. Where special conditions exist, the building official is authorized to require additional construction documents to be prepared by a registered design professional .

R109.1.3 Floodplain inspections.

For construction in areas prone to flooding as established by Table R301.2(1), upon placement of the lowest floor, including basement , and prior to further vertical construction, the building official shall require submission of documentation, prepared and sealed by a registered design professional , of the elevation of the lowest floor, including basement , required in Section R322.

R502.8.2 Engineered wood products.

Cuts, notches and holes bored in trusses, structural composite lumber, structural glue-laminated members or I-joists are prohibited except where permitted by the manufacturer's recommendations or where the effects of such alterations are specifically considered in the design of the member by a registered design professional .

R301.1.3 Engineered design.

When a building of otherwise conventional construction contains structural elements exceeding the limits of Section R301 or otherwise not conforming to this code, these elements shall be designed in accordance with accepted engineering practice. The extent of such design need only demonstrate compliance of nonconventional elements with other applicable provisions and shall be compatible with the performance of the conventional framed system. Engineered design in accordance with the International Building Code is permitted for all buildings and structures, and parts thereof, included in the scope of this code.
Statutes trumps regulation. The building code text is regulation. The statutes ALWAYS by court of law overrules a regulation.

102.2 Other Laws. The provisions of the building code shall not be deemed to nullify any provisions of local, state or federal law.

102.2 trumps the following:

R106.1 Submittal documents.

Submittal documents consisting of construction documents , and other data shall be submitted in two or more sets with each application for a permit. The construction documents shall be prepared by a registered design professional where required by the statutes of the jurisdiction in which the project is to be constructed. Where special conditions exist, the building official is authorized to require additional construction documents to be prepared by a registered design professional .

R109.1.3 Floodplain inspections.

For construction in areas prone to flooding as established by Table R301.2(1), upon placement of the lowest floor, including basement , and prior to further vertical construction, the building official shall require submission of documentation, prepared and sealed by a registered design professional , of the elevation of the lowest floor, including basement , required in Section R322.

R502.8.2 Engineered wood products.

Cuts, notches and holes bored in trusses, structural composite lumber, structural glue-laminated members or I-joists are prohibited except where permitted by the manufacturer's recommendations or where the effects of such alterations are specifically considered in the design of the member by a registered design professional .

Law as applied in context means the codified laws not rules or regulation.

It is ultimately subordinate to actual codified law. Court rule and case law has always held the codified law as supreme over the regulations especially like the code which is merely modified model code written by a third party. The code isn't originally written for Oregon law and regulatory modifications by state agencies doesn't always get it compliant. This is why 102.2 is implemented because when the building regulatory code text is in conflict with the adopted laws (codified statutes), the codified law wins. To be really a law, it has to be codified as a statutes and not by any one agency of the local, state or federal government.

By overstepping statutes and the provision, the building official is overstepping his authority as if he is above the codified law. You are not above the codified law and is subjected to the codified law. Your authority is adopted by authority of the regulation not that codified law.
 
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RickAstoria said:
There are local jurisdictions where they want all drawings to be stamped but they do except drawings by an NCBDC certified building designer when an architect or engineer's stamp is not required by state law to prepare plans and specifications for.
So basically anybody could prepare those drawings in those areas where a licensed design professional (architect) is NOT required. The fact that they allow NCBDC to sign and seal them means as much as a set of drawings with no sign or seal, right?
 
mtlogcabin said:
I doubt they fell within the prescriptive requirements of the IRC so you better have a structural engineer you work with who will sign and seal his portion.
You can bet money that that house required either an architect or an engineer to sign and seal some portion.
 
rktect 1 said:
So basically anybody could prepare those drawings in those areas where a licensed design professional (architect) is NOT required. The fact that they allow NCBDC to sign and seal them means as much as a set of drawings with no sign or seal, right?
Basically, it is somewhere from equal to a set of drawings with no sign or seal to something somewhere between an Architect or Engineer's stamp. Some local "codified" law may require a stamp or seal on ALL drawings but local jurisdiction may accept NCBDC stamp in lieu of an Architect or Engineer's stamp on buildings exempt under state law but NOT for non-exempt buildings.

This can happen and is sometimes applied at local law level vs. a state law level but it has to be codified by the city's or county's codified law. Provided there is no state law that impedes that ability.
 
If the project was in Oregon, legally I can do all the design and calcs.
Not in Montana

Your posts imply that what Oregon allows you to do and design is applicable throughout all the states and you are so argumentative when those in other states tell you you don't have the same latitude where they live and work you seem to refuse to accept it. Nobody is argueing Oregon law with you but that is what you keep going back to.

(6) (a) "Practice of engineering" means:

(i) any service or creative work the adequate performance of which requires engineering education, training, and experience in the application of special knowledge of the mathematical, physical, and engineering sciences to the services or creative work as consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning and design of engineering works and systems, planning the use of water, teaching of advanced engineering subjects, engineering surveys, and the inspection of construction for the purpose of ensuring compliance with drawings and specifications;

(ii) any of the functions described in subsection (6)(a)(i) that embrace the services or work, either public or private, in connection with any utilities, structures, buildings, machines, equipment, processes, work systems, projects, and industrial or consumer products or equipment of mechanical, electrical, hydraulic, pneumatic, or thermal nature insofar as they involve safeguarding life, health, or property.

(b) The term includes other professional services necessary to the planning, progress, and completion of any engineering services.

© The term does not include the work ordinarily performed by persons who operate or maintain machinery or equipment, communication lines, signal circuits, electric powerlines, or pipelines.
 
mtlogcabin said:
Not in MontanaYour posts imply that what Oregon allows you to do and design is applicable throughout all the states and you are so argumentative when those in other states tell you you don't have the same latitude where they live and work you seem to refuse to accept it. Nobody is argueing Oregon law with you but that is what you keep going back to.
I'm never said that other states were all the same. I think I actually made note of that and it was missed somewhere.

BTW: If you read Oregon law and quoted it: Read ORS 672.060.

672.060 Exceptions to application of ORS 672.002 to 672.325. ORS 672.002 to 672.325 do not apply to the following:

...

(10) A person making plans or specifications for, or supervising the erection, enlargement or alteration of, a building, or an appurtenance thereto, if the building is to be used for a single family residential dwelling or farm building or is a structure used in connection with or auxiliary to a single family residential dwelling or farm building, including but not limited to a three-car garage, barn or shed or a shelter used for the housing of domestic animals or livestock. The exemption in this subsection does not apply to a registered professional engineer.

(11) A person making plans or specifications for, or supervising the erection, enlargement or alteration of, a building, or an appurtenance thereto, if the building has a ground area of 4,000 square feet or less and is not more than 20 feet in height from the top surface of lowest flooring to the highest interior overhead finish of the structure. The exemption in this subsection does not apply to a registered professional engineer.

If you read this and want to push legal technicality - the engineer title does not apply nor the "practice of engineering" definition or the licensure requirement or even the stamping requirement. calcs are part of making plans and specifications. NOTHING in this exemption requires the buildings to be prescriptive code.

However, other states have different laws and I made note of that multiple times.
 
RickAstoria said:
Why not just be concerned with "registered design professional" vs. "design professionals". Design professionals can be any professional. However, our code had been essentially specific to use the words "registered design professional". Registered would mean licensed / registered. I think RDP or "registered design professional" would be the thing to expect licensure but 'design professional' - nah. I consider landscape designers, interior designers, building designers, automobile designers and boat designers are all design professionals. However, "registered design professional" would be a different thing. The important word is "registered". Certified does not equal "registered" as far as I am concern.
Not my concern Rick, my understanding of the law, if you are not licensed you cannot use the term "professional", that would be crossing the legal line. Adopting the name "designer" was and is an attempt to confuse the general public. Draftsmen are allowed to use the term "designer" but are not allowed to use the term "design professional". I actually was speaking to a builder in that post and have no real interest in a long winded debate over interpretation of Oregon law.
 
DRP: I'll make it clear - THERE IS NO SUCH THING OF THE STATE GOVERNING THE WORD - PROFESSIONAL. IT IS NOT A PROTECTED WORD ! ! ! !

Professional as a word is NOT within the legal authority of the state. The state can NOT ever LAWFULLY restrict common words. It was declared so by U.S. Supreme Court. The Architectural licensing laws has been under scrutiny of the U.S. federal courts an watching for states engaging in unlawful restriction of trade and commerce. Common words can not be protected by title law. There is NO law governing in the state of Oregon over the word "professional". States violates federal law when they engage in unlawful restriction of trade and commerce to benefit a few people from the many. The licensing laws as they are are dubious in legal sense.
 
DRP,

Otherwise, QUOTE me a codified law that says a person can't use the words "design professional". The building code is NOT a title law. It is not the jurisdiction of building officials or any state building code division to enforce title laws. They can only report to the appropriate agency.

Yes, I am a design professional. If you want to complain, file a complaint to BOTH OBAE and OSBEELS and I'll be more than willing to put them right in their place.

The protected title is "Professional Engineer" The word Professional is not protected. The word "Engineer" is partly protected. The title "Professional Engineer" is protected when combined in such fashion.
 
California solved the problem of building designers over 50 years ago. They regulated building designers grandfathering in all existing ones. Then they decided to not allow any new building designers to be licensed. I do not believe that there are any still practicing.

In California there is an exemption for 1 and 2 family residential buildings not more than two stories high that conform to the conventional construction provisions in the IBC. If you perform engineering calculations and are not a licensed engineer or architect you are guilty of practicing engineering without a license.

There appear to be more than enough architects looking to do this work so it is not clear how one makes a profit.
 
Yes, I simply said before that not all states allow exemption. However, FYI: The title that was and still is protected is "registered building designers". There are still building designers in California that were not grandfathered into being architects when they ended the registered building designer licensing. California primarily did it for Craig Ellwood and when he essentially retired, they ended it. However, there are building designers that did not get grandfathered in because they were in the midst of the process of becoming NCBDC certified which from what I recall was a pre-requisite for qualifying for becoming a registered building designer.

They ended this in the early 1980s.
 
The following section of California Business and Professions Code makes it clear what is the legal status of Business Designers in California.

5536. (a) It is a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine of not less than one hundred dollars ($100) nor more than five thousand dollars ($5,000), or by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or by both that fine and imprisonment, for any person who is not licensed to practice architecture under this chapter to practice architecture in this state, to use any term confusingly similar to the word architect, to use the stamp of a licensed architect, as

provided in Section 5536.1, or to advertise or put out any sign, card, or other device that might indicate to the public that he or she is an architect, that he or she is qualified to engage in the practice of architecture, or that he or she is an architectural designer.

(b) It is a misdemeanor, punishable as specified in subdivision (a), for any person who is not licensed to practice architecture under this chapter to affix a stamp or seal that bears the legend "State of California" or words or symbols that represent or imply that the person is so licensed by the state to prepare plans, specifications, or instruments of service.

© It is a misdemeanor, punishable as specified in subdivision (a), for any person to advertise or represent that he or she is a "registered building designer" or is registered or otherwise licensed by the state as a building designer.

Any building designers in California probably walk a fine line.
 
Mark K said:
The following section of California Business and Professions Code makes it clear what is the legal status of Business Designers in California.5536. (a) It is a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine of not less than one hundred dollars ($100) nor more than five thousand dollars ($5,000), or by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or by both that fine and imprisonment, for any person who is not licensed to practice architecture under this chapter to practice architecture in this state, to use any term confusingly similar to the word architect, to use the stamp of a licensed architect, as

provided in Section 5536.1, or to advertise or put out any sign, card, or other device that might indicate to the public that he or she is an architect, that he or she is qualified to engage in the practice of architecture, or that he or she is an architectural designer.

(b) It is a misdemeanor, punishable as specified in subdivision (a), for any person who is not licensed to practice architecture under this chapter to affix a stamp or seal that bears the legend "State of California" or words or symbols that represent or imply that the person is so licensed by the state to prepare plans, specifications, or instruments of service.

© It is a misdemeanor, punishable as specified in subdivision (a), for any person to advertise or represent that he or she is a "registered building designer" or is registered or otherwise licensed by the state as a building designer.

Any building designers in California probably walk a fine line.
Any building designer can call themselves a building designer. They just simply can't use the words "registered" or "licensed" (they can use the word certified as in NCBDC certified but they can't say "state-certified". They also can't use the word "architectural" to the name like "architectural designer"). Then it is a title law things more than anything. Building Designer in general has been accepted in when there was "registered building designer" licensing program.
 
Hey Rick same in the 2011 IRC. Try to remember the IRC code definition for design professional is one who is a Registered Design Professional.

not registered = non-professional designer.
 
kilitact said:
Hey Rick same in the 2011 IRC. Try to remember the IRC code definition for design professional is one who is a Registered Design Professional.not registered = non-professional designer.
And the code certainly has a way of wording things concisely and clearly:

R201.2 Interchangeability. Words used in the present tense include the future; words in the masculine gender include the feminine and neuter; the singular number includes the plural and the plural, the singular.

Quibbling over the usage of the term 'professional' seems just plain silly. Either one is registered and/or licensed or they are not. In terms of the code a design professional has no more meaning than sports professional or code professional. To denigrate the lawful activities of a class of individuals who profess to have specialized knowledge is in essence a character attack. Is an AHJ obligated to accept plans from a self proclaimed design professional? No. Should the AHJ care? If the BO or body politic feel the need for an RDP to be involved with every submittal then pass an ordinance.
 
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