Outdoor bathing - IRC 2009

[345_Architect]

Hi,

IRC 2009 - I have a client who wants to provide an outdoor shower as the only means of bathing. This is a "weekend cabin" type arrangement and not a primary residence or continually occupied residence.
Proposed arrangement is as below

I cannot see where the required bath / shower is mandated to be inside the building - anyone got comments suggestions on how I present an argument for this arrangement to the Plans Examiner? They are saying that the layout is not compliant - I need to provide interior - but not giving clear reference in terms of code.
Their reference is based on the definition of a bathroom - "a group of fixtures, including or excluding a bidet, consisting of a water closet, lavatory, and bathtub or shower. Such fixtures are located together on the same floor level. Please see section R202 of the definition" and a Dwelling - I only see that IRC 306.1 calls for each Dwelling Unit to have WC, lavatory and bathtub or shower.

Thoughts?

 

[345_Architect]

 

[cda]

Welcome!!!

I would be glad to come there and consult,,, might take all winter!!

They need to give you a code section to deny it,,, otherwise not a problem

Seems like there has to be other houses with similar set up

 

[cda]

Some houses have room with toilet only

Some with bathtub or shower only

So I think the definition is out the window

 

[cda]

Put a fence around it, then it is part of the room???

 

[345_Architect]

Welcome!!!

I would be glad to come there and consult,,, might take all winter!!

They need to give you a code section to deny it,,, otherwise not a problem

Seems like there has to be other houses with similar set up

cda - not a bad destination to thaw out alright.
I have had outdoor showers in the past - but in a house that had an indoor one also - this also pre-dated out signing up to IBC/IRC - we were under SBCCI 1999 at the time.
The response provided was:
Base on the intent of the code, a dwelling is any building that contains one or two dwelling units used, intended, or designed to be built, used, rented, leased, let or hired out to be occupied, or that are occupied for living purposes per section R202 of the definition.

Please note the intent of a bathroom is a group of fixtures, including or excluding a bidet, consisting of a water closet, lavatory, and bathtub or shower. Such fixtures are located together on the same floor level. Please see section R202 of the definition.

As a result of the attachment, where Cottage two indicates a shower on sheet A-102 on the outside, please note cottage two will not meet the intent of the code.

Please note you are not limited to just one shower, you may have one on the outside, but a shower shall also be within the dwelling bathroom.

I don't agree with the interpretation - am trying to solicit opinions to see if I pursue further. Hoping to get a good argument in favor - will include internally if it comes to it.
Haven't been on this website for a few years - must get back keeping current on the code discussions / arguments of the day

 

[ADAguy]

Consider:

Technical Details

1. Unenclosed cold water locations with no drain provided:
   1. These may be allowed to run off into landscaped areas or similar areas where they will not create a nuisance. They cannot drain into streams, water ways or a swimming pool. To be considered a cold water connection there must be one valve with a single cold water connection, and no provision for hot water connection.
2. Locations with hot and cold water or cold water with a drain:
   1. These will require a drain connected to the building drainage (sanitary) system. The location must be provided with a roof and must be located in a manner that will exclude rain, run off from decks, roofs or other areas from entering into the shower drain.
3. Trap primer: A trap primer is required in these locations.
4. Enclosures: A water location is considered enclosed when it has two or more walls. Walls of enclosed water locations shall be smooth, waterproof, and washable. Where the water location is not enclosed, exterior wall coverings are acceptable for the one shower wall.

Also: if a cabin for only occasional occupancy maybe a power room may be sufficient but note above considerations.

 

[345_Architect]

Consider:

Technical Details

1. Unenclosed cold water locations with no drain provided:
   1. These may be allowed to run off into landscaped areas or similar areas where they will not create a nuisance. They cannot drain into streams, water ways or a swimming pool. To be considered a cold water connection there must be one valve with a single cold water connection, and no provision for hot water connection.
2. Locations with hot and cold water or cold water with a drain:
   1. These will require a drain connected to the building drainage (sanitary) system. The location must be provided with a roof and must be located in a manner that will exclude rain, run off from decks, roofs or other areas from entering into the shower drain.
3. Trap primer: A trap primer is required in these locations.
4. Enclosures: A water location is considered enclosed when it has two or more walls. Walls of enclosed water locations shall be smooth, waterproof, and washable. Where the water location is not enclosed, exterior wall coverings are acceptable for the one shower wall.

Also: if a cabin for only occasional occupancy maybe a power room may be sufficient but note above considerations.

Thanks for this - I had assumed that the shower drainage would be connected to the main cottage drainage system - I take the point about rainwater infiltrating the septic tank. I would be able to include some form of rain protection if it gets green light from a Plans Examiner

 

[cda]

Bathroom group

I do not have search feature right now.

I wonder where in irc that term is defined

I think they are reaching.

You can ask for ICC opinion

Do you have the IRC handbook???

 

[cda]

Does the plans examiner have a boss,

Might be worth a set down talk

 

[north star]

# ~ # ~ #

In addition to a meeting with the BO, you might request a variance.

Splitting hairs & all, and technically speaking, your submitted
drawing looks like a floor level and a patio level [ i.e. - not
a true floor ].

# ~ # ~ #

 

[ICE]

A dwelling unit includes sanitation facilities. A dwelling contains a dwelling unit. All components of a dwelling unit shall be “contained” within the confines of a dwelling.

 

[cda]

How about leave the shower off the plans, and do not include one inside.

See if that drives them crazy!!! And if they question it???

 

[cda]

A dwelling unit includes sanitation facilities. A dwelling contains a dwelling unit. All components of a dwelling unit shall be “contained” within the confines of a dwelling.

So is a house required to have a bathtub or shower???

 

[e hilton]

Consider:

1. Trap primer: A trap primer is required in these locations.
2. .

Can you explain when the trap primer is required. What are “these locations”

 

[JCraver]

Can you build a wall around the outdoor shower, and put a roof on it? IMO it could all be outside the envelope of the main dwelling, but I could/would accept it if it was built similar to a room addition off of the rest of the bathroom.

 

[SCBO1]

I just saw an outdoor shower on an episode of "Main Cabin Builders!" so it must be okay?

 

[mtlogcabin]

Where does the IRC even require exterior walls to be considered a building which is to be used as a dwelling.
Considering the climate this project is in I believe an outdoor shower meets the intent of the code to provide a bathing facility.

[RB] DWELLING. Any building that contains one or two dwelling units ....
[RB] BUILDING. Any one- or two-family dwelling or portion thereof,......

The deck with the outside shower is a portion of the dwelling IMHO

 

[345_Architect]

So is a house required to have a bathtub or shower???

R306.1 Toilet facilities. Every dwellingunit shall be provided with a water closet, lavatory, and a bathtub or shower.

I think the stumbling block is whether it is required to be inside the "external envelope of the building" - as allude to by ICE

A dwelling unit includes sanitation facilities. A dwelling contains a dwelling unit. All components of a dwelling unit shall be “contained” within the confines of a dwelling.

Thanks for the input ICE - do you think an external deck be considered part of the dwelling - external in nature - but connected to the dwelling? I am just not seeing where in the book it requires this to be internal or "contained". I can see logic to why a Plans Examiner would instinctively want this to be internal - but what I don't see is how they apply this.
The response was copied to the BO and as such I am taking that as his agreement with the plans examiner. I am leaning towards asking for a variance. If I ask for a variance I should be able to point to a piece of code that I am not compliant with though...

 

[345_Architect]

Where does the IRC even require exterior walls to be considered a building which is to be used as a dwelling.
Considering the climate this project is in I believe an outdoor shower meets the intent of the code to provide a bathing facility.

[RB] DWELLING. Any building that contains one or two dwelling units ....
[RB] BUILDING. Any one- or two-family dwelling or portion thereof,......

The deck with the outside shower is a portion of the dwelling IMHO

I like your thinking - but coming from someone with "log cabin" as part of their username I detect a small bit of bias....

 

[cda]

R306.1 Toilet facilities. Every dwellingunit shall be provided with a water closet, lavatory, and a bathtub or shower.

I think the stumbling block is whether it is required to be inside the "external envelope of the building" - as allude to by ICE



Thanks for the input ICE - do you think an external deck be considered part of the dwelling - external in nature - but connected to the dwelling? I am just not seeing where in the book it requires this to be internal or "contained". I can see logic to why a Plans Examiner would instinctively want this to be internal - but what I don't see is how they apply this.
The response was copied to the BO and as such I am taking that as his agreement with the plans examiner. I am leaning towards asking for a variance. If I ask for a variance I should be able to point to a piece of code that I am not compliant with though...

They should point to a better section saying you cannot do it.

You are providing the shower,,,

Tell them, they let me do it in Hawaii!

 

[cda]

Cannot copy and paste definition of

Building Area from IBC

Looks like if you extend the roof line over this shower,,,,, It is than part of the “building”


Problem solved

 

[mtlogcabin]

I grew up in Fort Lauderdale Fl and was given an outside shower many times before being allowed into the house when I was younger. Fort Lauderdale in the 50's was pretty nice compared to today.
Yes I did live in a 16X16 log cabin in Montana with no electricity or indoor sanitation facilities for 5 years.
"bias" not really just a common sense approach when meeting the "intent" of the code

 

[e hilton]

I think you could argue that it meets the intent because the primary entrance is through the inside of the house.