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Pennsylvania wants to skip the 2009 codes

jar546

jar546

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There is pending legislation from one PA polititian that would skip the 09 codes in an effort to circumvent the sprinkler requirement in the IRC. At publicly televised hearings online the home buildiners association was claiming insane numbers for costs. I believe that there is actual, real data showing a cost of less than $2. square foot. Correct?
 
Re: Pennsylvania wants to skip the 2009 codes

Does your state always upgrade to the next code? My state has not adopted any ICC codes.

I doubt the village I work in will jump from 2006 to 2009. Probably wait for about 2015. The last jump here was from the 1996 BOCA and 1995 CABO to the 2006 codes.
 
Re: Pennsylvania wants to skip the 2009 codes

Like RKTect, Illinois has no state code, other than our own state plumbing code.

Our municipality adopts every other code cycle. 2000 ICC, 2006 ICC, and presumably 2012 ICC.

We are a small municipality, and just buying the required sets of books can be a budget killer.

mj
 
Re: Pennsylvania wants to skip the 2009 codes

Jeff:

You are correct regarding costs and the NAHB mis-information. It worked well in our state so far (legal rammification study being done now on how amending it our will work). There are studies and figures out there that are far more accurate and based on (rural, municipal & fixed and multi-purpose) which are independent studies not just the sprinkler interest versions. I have some if needed.
 
Re: Pennsylvania wants to skip the 2009 codes

I think the $2 figure can work if you have a simple house (not a lot of ceilng breaks requiring extra heads) and a good water supply.

If you're on a well, you have to add in the cost of a tank & pump (many places here in central Va. only get 3 GPM or so from a well). If your water company has low pressure, you have to add for a larger water service & meter, which can get very expensive in some areas.
 
Re: Pennsylvania wants to skip the 2009 codes

Good for Pennsylvania.

The ICC mistakes adding requirements and increasing restrictions for improving the code.

The real need is for better clarity and more simplification.
 
Re: Pennsylvania wants to skip the 2009 codes

Paul Sweet said:
I think the $2 figure can work if you have a simple house (not a lot of ceilng breaks requiring extra heads) and a good water supply. If you're on a well, you have to add in the cost of a tank & pump (many places here in central Va. only get 3 GPM or so from a well). If your water company has low pressure, you have to add for a larger water service & meter, which can get very expensive in some areas.
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Or a second meter and tap fee plus a monthly minimum charge in some jurisdictions.

Add in the potential for increased insurance rates.

First cost is only part of the story.
 
Re: Pennsylvania wants to skip the 2009 codes

The state of Wyoming decided last fall to skip the 2009 codes wholesale. There has been discussion about resigning completly from the icc (international cash cow) That is: no icc chapter in this state at all. The "codes" are a run away train.

The city I work for has been considering adoption of the 09 codes but after being in Baltimore last week we are reconsidering. The icc and the code process is out of control. Even icc staff rolls their eyes about the direction of the icc. Perhaps the merger of the 3 model codes was a very bad mistake.

As for the president and the board of directors.......... Well, they would be excellent used car salesmen!
 
Re: Pennsylvania wants to skip the 2009 codes

Jar:

Here in expensive California:

1) Tract home = $4 a foot

2) Custom home = $6 a foot

3) Large custom home $9 a foot

4) Large custom home, angles, high ceilings = $12 a foot

In addition to this every water service has their own meter rates, in mine the meter is $30,000.

We have a bill in the legislature now requiring that all personnel installing residential sprinklers serve 5 year apprenticeships, making all fire sprinkler installers union.
 
Re: Pennsylvania wants to skip the 2009 codes

I tried to attach a file that is the NFPA Research Foundation's nationwide study on sprinkler costs and it was not allowed. It is the final report dated June 2009. You can pm me and I will email it to you.

Obviously this is probably the most debated portion of the entire difference of opinion for this topic.

Greg
 
Re: Pennsylvania wants to skip the 2009 codes

I certainly wouldn't believe any information published by an industry trade association, the only way to really tell is to call a licensed sprinkler contractor in the area within which you work, they will be happy to give you a range of prices since they are doing it for a living on a daily basis.

As far as the NFPA goes, read their history, it sounds like a Bulwer-Lytton bad prose entry.



Edward George Bulwer-Lytton said:
"It was a dark and stormy night; the rain fell in torrents--except at occasional intervals, when it was checked by a violent gust of wind which swept up the streets (for it is in London that our scene lies), rattling along the housetops, and fiercely agitating the scanty flame of the lamps that struggled against the darkness." --Edward George Bulwer-Lytton, Paul Clifford (1830)
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NFPA said:
Water of the Sprinklered TypeThe forefathers of the NFPA were a visionary breed. In their own unique way, all who were involved played an important role and each deserves their own dedicated story. If only time and resources would allow such an endeavor!

Returning in time to the small farming community of West Bridgton, Maine, a young baby boy was given the name of John Ripley Freeman when he entered the world on July 27, 1855. It was amidst these country surroundings that he spent his early years. Eventually, he would venture to Massachusetts Institute of Technology were he graduated from the Department of Civil Engineering in 1876.¹
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¹ http://www.nfpa.org/itemDetail.asp?cate ... ew/History
 
Re: Pennsylvania wants to skip the 2009 codes

A set of code books is a budget issue for the smaller muni. They tend to wait a bit before spending the funds for new code books. I like to see the big muni's jump in and work the bugs out first and then catch up later. The sprinkler issue, could'nt you just omit it from the code when you adopt the 2009. I've seen city's remove the "stairs out of the basement requirement" when adopting codes!
 
Re: Pennsylvania wants to skip the 2009 codes

California did just that when they adopted the IBC and not the IRC, they just deleted the IBC sprinkler requirement for one and two family dwellings. I actually want to see some guinea pig jurisdictions adopt it, then we'll get some real world numbers to put this insanity to bed once and for all.
 
Re: Pennsylvania wants to skip the 2009 codes

Estimated sprinkler installation costs by NFPA and its advocates is the biggest lie out there. Actual bids for residential fire sprinklers in this area are coming in at over $5.00 a sq.ft. NAHB numbers may not be accurate but its a lot closer than the bogus $1.61 per sq.ft. being spewed by the sprinkler supporters.
 
Re: Pennsylvania wants to skip the 2009 codes

When you ask a builder to do something that they haven't been doing for twenty years, you should expect the costs to go up substantially.
 
Re: Pennsylvania wants to skip the 2009 codes

:roll:

I work for a muni that has had a sprinkler ordinance since 2005 and the average cost is $3 sq ft and that is on a private well not city water.The problem I see is there are only limited number of contractors who do the residental systems so this could increase the price when demand is increased.
 
Re: Pennsylvania wants to skip the 2009 codes

Scottsdale, AZ and Prince George's County, MD have had sprinkler ordinances for single family homes for quite some time. There are your guinea pigs. Call and check out the costs.

http://www.homefiresprinkler.org/images ... Report.pdf

Also:

http://www.fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build ... b07025.pdf

Although it was in 2005 The costs were:

$0.55/SF for a colonial style home;

$0.75/SF for a townhouse; and

$0.68/SF for a ranch home

Adjusted for inflation (2005 - 2009), those numbers are:

$0.61/SF for a colonial style home;

$0.83/SF for a townhouse; and

$0.75/SF for a ranch home
 
Re: Pennsylvania wants to skip the 2009 codes

I think the NAHB numbers are a bit deceiving. They're adding in variable "what-if" costs since they haven't had to do this in the past. It's not that expensive. For a 13D system it is definitely under a dollar a square foot.
 
Re: Pennsylvania wants to skip the 2009 codes

Let us not forget the multi-purpose system also approved and typically can be done on the pre-planned 1" domestic service and no need for RPZ or BF. The material and heads are very affordable in the scheme of the plumbing contractor's Parts Materials and Labor bidded quotes ;)
 
Re: Pennsylvania wants to skip the 2009 codes

Conarb,

Make sure you build the home per Chapter 7A of the CBC (WUI area), also..vents with fire dampers won't keep flying embers out. You can use a State Fire Marshal approved vent such as "O'Haugin's" or "Vulcan Technology". All of the windows on the house are required to be dual glazed and tempered on one of the two panes of every window, even the garage door has to be non-combustible or exterior fire-retardant wood, to name just a few of the requirements.

What was the loophole in the ordinance that you found?

the state does not allow potable water in CPVC, CPVC cannot be used in this geological zone becasue of earthquakes
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California, including Saratoga.... DOES allow the use of CPVC for potable water in residential. See 2007 CPC Section 604.1.1 "The local responsible building official of any city, county, or city and county shall authorize by permit the use of CPVC for hot and cold water distribution systems within the interior of residential buildings provided all of the following conditions are satisfied:...." and it goes on to list the specific conditions. There is no mention of earthquake or geological zones.

See also IAPMO IS 20-2005 "Installation Standard for CPVC Solvent Cemented Hot and Cold Water Distribution Systems" on page 419 of the 2007 CPC
 
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