Permits for Replacing windows?

[TimNY]

When old frames are removed full compliance is all criteria. Wind DP, Air Infiltration, Energy ..

What DP are you guys using in RI?

 

[Yankee]

Fatboy & pwood,

"we do not require a permit for likewise replacement"

"We don't require a permit for like size replacements"

How do you know they are like size/wise replacements if there is no permit application?

We require a permit and we check for safety glazing, energy efficiency, and EERO (if it is EERO, then it cannot be made "less" complying than previously, and we hope to have it comply to at least the minimum 20x24)

 

[brudgers]

Personally, I think requiring window permits is often counterproductive because - as this thread points out - building departments start making homeowners jump through additional hoops.

 

[conarb]

Well personally I do, I've handled hundreds of cases as a license board arbitrator, license board industry expert, and private construction defects expert, in the last one when I was called in I saw a disabled man sitting in his chair next to mushrooms growing out of the Styrofoam around the windows, I had to have the 15 unit building vacated so remediation and replacement could be done, the city did not require a permit, bu the time the litigation is finished the contractor will be bankrupt and the owners will lose a fortune, all because the city didn't require a permit. After all, codes, permits, and inspections once were about the health and safety of the public, I realize that they have run far afield from that now, but they should at least take into consideration their primary mandate.

 

[JBI]

See, if there was a like button, I wouldn't have had to post this. Well said conarb.

 

[Bootleg]

Fatboy & pwood,"we do not require a permit for likewise replacement"

"We don't require a permit for like size replacements"

How do you know they are like size/wise replacements if there is no permit application?

We require a permit and we check for safety glazing, energy efficiency, and EERO (if it is EERO, then it cannot be made "less" complying than previously, and we hope to have it comply to at least the minimum 20x24)

This is what I run into in the field because the BO at the City I work doesn't do plan review for the permit fee$$$.

I feel the safety glass and egress code are very hard to understand unless you work with them or learn the hard way by installing the windows without a plan review and the field inspector has to tell you your new window in your bedroom needs to also be 5.7 or 5.0 sq. feet and at least the minimum 20 x24.

 

[brudgers]

Well personally I do, I've handled hundreds of cases as a license board arbitrator, license board industry expert, and private construction defects expert, in the last one when I was called in I saw a disabled man sitting in his chair next to mushrooms growing out of the Styrofoam around the windows, I had to have the 15 unit building vacated so remediation and replacement could be done, the city did not require a permit, bu the time the litigation is finished the contractor will be bankrupt and the owners will lose a fortune, all because the city didn't require a permit. After all, codes, permits, and inspections once were about the health and safety of the public, I realize that they have run far afield from that now, but they should at least take into consideration their primary mandate.

Those are great stories.

However, requiring a permit doesn't mean that a scam artist will get one or that proper flashing will be designed by the installer.

There is a point where escalating bureaucracy exceeds diminishing returns. As I said, window permits are largely counter-productive.

 

[brudgers]

This is what I run into in the field because the BO at the City I work doesn't do plan review for the permit fee$$$.I feel the safety glass and egress code are very hard to understand unless you work with them or learn the hard way by installing the windows without a plan review and the field inspector has to tell you your new window in your bedroom needs to also be 5.7 or 5.0 sq. feet and at least the minimum 20 x24.

Add in that many code officials can't distinguish between egress and escape.

 

[SCBO1]

This topic has no easy answer as I see it.

I get the call, "Do you issue a permit for replacing windows?" It depends, 1)Are you replacing with the same size and upgrading to a more energy saving insulated window? 2)Are you increasing or decreasing the size of the window? 3)Is it in a bedroom, needs to meet egress requirement? 4)Does the bedroom have two windows or a door to grade, to meet egress? 5)Are you replacing any headers or doing any framing changes? 6)Does your mother have a single sister? 7)Do you have smoke detectors?

What about vinyl siding, do I need a permit for that too?

After all the questions, then I let them know they need a permit. Where do you live? "In the county!"

pc1

 

[rktect 1]

This topic has no easy answer as I see it. What about vinyl siding, do I need a permit for that too?

Is there an inherent life safety issue with replacing vinyl siding?

 

[Bootleg]

Add in that many code officials can't distinguish between egress and escape.

What is the difference?

 

[TimNY]

I believe the requirement for a permit should be relatively simple, but of course different jurisdictions have adopted different regulations.

I tis clear in Appendix J that the removal and replacement of windows is an alteration.

Somewhere each jurisdiction is granted the authority to require and issue permits. If that regulation requires a permit for an alteration, you have your answer.

I think most of the discussion here is whether or not it is worth the trouble to enforce the local requirement that a permit be required for an alteration. Maybe a municipality is too busy to deal with them, maybe the fee structure is such that issuing a permit for the activity would be a hardship for the owner, maybe an inspector doesn't want to get involved in the quagmire of what else needs to be done to comply.

Anderson's install instructions say the width of tape flashing per contractor. If you replace the window trim, I think you could get an adequate seal, and there's nothing contrary in the manufacturer's instructions. I once worked on the commercial building where I was presented with instructions from Anderson to completely cut the nail flange off (and these were molded into the window, not the ones you just pull off). There are ways to install a replacement window without residing the whole house.

YMMV..

 

[Glennman CBO]

I know this is geting a bit away from the OP, but based on brudgers and Bootleg's comments, I noticed that R310.1 (emergency and escape and rescue openings), it mentions with regard to basements "emergency egress and rescue openings" and "emergency escape and rescue openings", with no apparent distinction.

Is this a typo? That's the only place it is mentioned like that.

 

[conarb]

If they can require permits for tree houses, I guess they should require permits for altering the weatherproof barrier of a real house.

Shortly after Melinda Hackett put up the round, cedar treehouse for her girls in a broad-trunked London Plane tree in her tiny Greenwich Village backyard, a neighbor called about "a structure in rear which is nailed to a tree" and "looks unsafe," with no construction permit posted, according to a complaint filed with the city. "I got home and the police were at the door," says Hackett, a 49-year-old artist. "Then firefighters came."

After months of legal battles, Hackett triumphed. Her girls' treehouse, apparently unique in one of America's most densely populated areas, can not only stay — it's been granted landmark status.¹

¹ http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101027/ap_on_re_us/us_manhattan_treehouse

 

[Bootleg]

Cool treehouse.

 

[pwood]

Fatboy & pwood,"we do not require a permit for likewise replacement"

"We don't require a permit for like size replacements"

How do you know they are like size/wise replacements if there is no permit application?

We require a permit and we check for safety glazing, energy efficiency, and EERO (if it is EERO, then it cannot be made "less" complying than previously, and we hope to have it comply to at least the minimum 20x24)

yankee,

what would a permit cost for like replacement 15 windows with a $10,000 value in your jurisdiction? how many inspections do you make? any other ahj want to comment?

 

[rktect 1]

I think we charge $50

It isn't a money maker.

 

[TimNY]

yankee, what would a permit cost for like replacement 15 windows with a $10,000 value in your jurisdiction? how many inspections do you make? any other ahj want to comment?

Miscellaneous permit. $100.

 

[Bootleg]

I know this is geting a bit away from the OP, but based on brudgers and Bootleg's comments, I noticed that R310.1 (emergency and escape and rescue openings), it mentions with regard to basements "emergency egress and rescue openings" and "emergency escape and rescue openings", with no apparent distinction.Is this a typo? That's the only place it is mentioned like that.

Glennman,

How I understand it is the egress window size came from the San Diego Fire department and is for the fire fighter to be able to get in the bedroom with all their gear on.

 

[conarb]

what would a permit cost for like replacement 15 windows with a $10,000 value in your jurisdiction? how many inspections do you make? any other ahj want to comment?

Just for you information, the cost for retrofitting windows into an old wood frame like a double hung runs about $600 a hole, if they try the same thing on aluminum it always fails, but the con-men who sell them average $800 a hole (or whatever the salesman can get). I had a corporation for a few years that did nothing but window replacements right, average cost was $3,000 a hole, an Andersen Frenchwood set of french doors costs $2,300 alone. This is stuccoing them in right including trimming the interiors, I had two homes that I built in the 70s that I replaced the windows in that ran over $350,000, one of those had 20 sets of Andersen french doors.I just looked up something in my records, in 2003 I picked up two permits at the same time, one for a 22 window replacement in a home for an attorney, the other an ADA compliance for two bathrooms in a Catholic church, what amazed me was that the cost was approximately the same for both permits, $693, the costs for the bathrooms was more but the permit fees were about the same, I asked why and was told that the windows were residential and the church was commercial, so the church pays more.

 

[Mule]

yankee, what would a permit cost for like replacement 15 windows with a $10,000 value in your jurisdiction? how many inspections do you make? any other ahj want to comment?

Permit $181.25

We check for safety glazing, energy efficiency, flashed and sealed.

 

[Jobsaver]

yankee, what would a permit cost for like replacement 15 windows with a $10,000 value in your jurisdiction? how many inspections do you make? any other ahj want to comment?

$48.00

We do initial inspections on request for window "replacement only" permits, and any requested inspections. We advise on safety glazing and change of egress issues.

To obtain a permit, we require a privilege license (any city in state) and a performance bond.

 

[Yankee]

Add in that many code officials can't distinguish between egress and escape.

So true, agreed.

About $40

Just a final for the LS spects

 

[pwood]

Permit $181.25We check for safety glazing, energy efficiency, flashed and sealed.

mule,

you use table 1-A 2001 edition to figure permit fees and no plan check charge? this is the figure that makes the most sense to me. the other answers are all over the board. there should a modicum of agreement somewhere in the determination of fees to give the public the perception that we are consistent in our fees for services!