Pool Closed Until Further Notice

[Papio Bldg Dept]

I take that you don't agree with me. Shirley there must be a goal. If not, then it's just a random jab at the populace to remind us who is in charge. So since you dispute my assessment, what pray tell, is your version of the goal?If we take this on a sentence at a time it will drag on too long so perhaps you could point out the insanity of the major premise.

I don't know that dragging this out is all that bad...I mean, this thread is only 5 pages long and still under a hundred posts.

As to major points of insanity, proclaiming a 100% compliance goal when current regulations rarely require over 20% compliance, is a good starting point. I fail to see the correlation between that and an intended goal of 100%, especially when the percentage of built environment for public areas usually requires only 5% compliance, and has consistently for the last 10 plus years.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

In regards to your wheel-chair statements, I think you have a fundamental reasoning flaw in your argument. To continue creating wheel-chairs at all will not resolve the issue...I think you need to aim towards mechanized robotic graphted interfaces (any suggestions for a better name with an acronym would be helpful), so that disabilities that are not addressed by the limitations of wheel-chair can also be covered. I would love to have a terminator eye to spot code violations on inspections and cite the correct code...for example.

 

[ICE]

I don't know that dragging this out is all that bad...I mean, this thread is only 5 pages long and still under a hundred posts. As to major points of insanity, proclaiming a 100% compliance goal when current regulations rarely require over 20% compliance, is a good starting point. I fail to see the correlation between that and an intended goal of 100%, especially when the percentage of built environment for public areas usually requires only 5% compliance, and has consistently for the last 10 plus years.

When you toss numbers out there I get a little spooked. First of all, I'm not all that good with math and secondly, the numbers always seem to be dealing with someone else because my ADA issue is always much bigger.

The two man tax office has enough ADA bathroom for a Piggly Wiggly but thankfully only five percent of what gets done is compliant. At least that's the perception.

Here I sit in the parking lot of a Staples Store and I see a sign by the entrance to the parking lot that has the wheel chair logo so that the <1%ers can be assured that there is a place to park. What a waste of sheet metal.

The other day at the doctors office I noticed that most every sign had tactile lettering. That's great but blind people don't know that there is a sign to rub in the first place.

Well I am on vacation and it's time to do something else.

 

[gbhammer]

In regards to your wheel-chair statements, I think you have a fundamental reasoning flaw in your argument. To continue creating wheel-chairs at all will not resolve the issue...I think you need to aim towards mechanized robotic graphted interfaces (any suggestions for a better name with an acronym would be helpful), so that disabilities that are not addressed by the limitations of wheel-chair can also be covered. I would love to have a terminator eye to spot code violations on inspections and cite the correct code...for example.

You have code eye on the mental incontinence today.

Dear SOB,I am GBHammer's doctor familiaris. GBhammer has contracted conjunctivitis of the code eye. I am hereby prescribing he take the remainder of the day to recover fully from his ailment and in order to protect his co-workers from contagion.

Thank You,

Dr. Papio

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

ICE...enjoy the vacation! Some have said that Staples stores are also a waste of sheet metal.

GB...you mean mental dia...oh nevermind.

 

[gbhammer]

Vacation? What is that?

ICE stop keeping tabs while your vacating. Even though we miss ya when you're not here kickn the cooler.

 

[Msradell]

It’s not too late to stop the madness. The goal of 100% of the built environment being accessible to <1% of the population is laudable lunacy that will never be achieved. The sums spent in the effort are staggering with questionable results. The bastardizing of designs and the carbon footprint of construction devoted to accessibility is not acknowledged. Yes I concede that it must suck to be stuck in a wheelchair. Life will do that to some and the rest of society isn’t wrong in wanting to help the disadvantaged. But there are limits and screwing up the entire place for the sake of the <1% is overboard. Requiring a chair lift for pools to accommodate <.01% of the population is the tail wagging the dog.

You definitely need to do some fact checking. The percentages you cite our way off from the true numbers.

There is another way. The billions that are spent on accessible construction could be spent on improving wheelchair technology. What would two million enhanced wheelchairs cost? I’m talking about a chair that climbs stairs, lifts and lowers, slices and dices with ease. $10,000.00 a pop is a few billion. Not a lot of money to make the entire planet accessible and not just new construction and those locations that get sued.

There was one of these available a few years ago and they cost about $35,000 each. They worked very well for some individuals but the problem was that the person using them had to have a very good mental capacity. This meant they were not usable by many potential users. At that time insurance would not pay for them so very few people could afford them. If you would like to donate one to me I would love one! They also had some limitations and obviously swimming pools which is the original subject of this thread is one of them.

Another fact you seem to be missing is that our population is aging and the elderly have an even higher disability percentage than the normal population.

 

[Msradell]

Here I sit in the parking lot of a Staples Store and I see a sign by the entrance to the parking lot that has the wheel chair logo so that the <1%ers can be assured that there is a place to park. What a waste of sheet metal.

Again your statistics don't match the actual case. In the case of handicapped parking I think anybody who ever gets a splinter can get their Dr. to write them a prescription for handicapped parking! In addition it seems that every Lexus, BMW, etc. comes with its own handicapped placard. We have a hard time finding available handicapped spaces, especially ones for our van because of the abuse. Just take a look at the people who use the handicapped spaces sometime and see how many really deserve them!

 

[GBrackins]

do like I do, when I see someone parked in a handicapped space without a handicap decal I call the police. I called once for a state trooper vehicle parked in a space. And then wait for the police to arrive and to hear their excuse. Amazing the things you hear ...

 

[GBrackins]

I've always heard that education costs ....

 

[incognito]

Again your statistics don't match the actual case. In the case of handicapped parking I think anybody who ever gets a splinter can get their Dr. to write them a prescription for handicapped parking! In addition it seems that every Lexus, BMW, etc. comes with its own handicapped placard. We have a hard time finding available handicapped spaces, especially ones for our van because of the abuse. Just take a look at the people who use the handicapped spaces sometime and see how many really deserve them!

Nothing better than a handicapped person pointing a finger at someone they do not consider handicapped enough to receive handicap consideration.

 

[jar546]

I noticed this thread getting bigger so I finally read the first page, then scanned. I will offer my take on ADA in general, which includes the lift for pools.

I live in an area that has a very high elderly per capita ratio. At one point we were the 2nd highest elderly population per capita in the US. We have a lot of people on oxygen with limited capacity to walk, many now using those scooters in place of wheelchairs (it helps their self esteem and makes them more mobile) and many have had strokes and only have use of 1 hand and or side of their bodies. This is an old coal mining area(no longer prevalent) that has plenty of black lung recipients, and former miners with missing limbs. Since many of these people have been scarred for life for simply working for a living, don't they deserve the same benefits as the rest of us? At one point 17% of us will be disabled, even if it is temporary. Knee surgery, broken limbs, etc. all come into play on a daily basis for the younger population and the elderly too.

With all of the whining about ADA, I wonder if anyone has ever had the experience of trying to help a family member with their disability? Did you ever have to stop a meal and leave a restaurant because there was not an ADA bathroom and you had to take the person home immediately so they can relieve themselves? It is asking too much to have businesses slowly come into compliance over the past 20 years? Who are we to judge the quality of life of others?

Frivolous lawsuits are a whole other subject and something that should be a separate thread. That is a problem that needs to be addressed. Let's not bash a good program because very, very few abuse it by utilizing the legal system. That is a legal system issue, not an ADA issue.

My mother recently passed away this past July at the young age of 64. Prior to her passing, for the last 2 years, her health had declined. We went out of our way to help her have a normal life. Getting help to get her onto the floating dock at the lake so we can get her onto the pontoon boat for a ride. The docks are brought in every year and fixed during the winter, but never, ever brought up to ADA standards, not even close, not even an attempt. We were unable to take her to some of her favorite places to eat because there was no way to get her into the building without making a spectacle and embarrassing her. Some places simply had not ADA bathroom that gave us enough room to help her so we did not even make that an option.

I watch people struggle in parking lots because the parking is not set up properly. I met a young girl, 35 years old who parked near me in a lot without proper ADA parking. She has been in a wheelchair since she was 14. There was no access isle and she struggled to open her door enough to get her wheelchair out and set it up so she can transfer herself. She was very independent. I have since taken over as BCO in the municipality and made the owners re-stripe it correctly when I caught them re-striping recently with no regard for compliance.

I am a scuba diving instructor and am working towards a specialty instructor status to help disabled veterans become certified. The pool lifts really help us in that regard. Lets not take opportunity away from others.

 

[globe trekker]

Very well stated Jeff!

IMO, there is a disconnect with a "me" vs. "them" mentality. Anyone

who has ever been around or associated with the elderly or physically

or mentally challenged (us code officials notwithstanding) certainly

recognizes the challenges in the built environment.

Until you are personally affected by some type of temporary or

permanent limitation, I do not know if you (figuratively speaking) can

appreciate some type of accomodations that will assist your everyday

life.

I would say that most of us on here are from the Baby Boom of the

late 50's. As we get older, .."if" we get older, I can only hope that

we had enough foresight to try and improve our surroundings by the

resources available to us. Growing older is not for the faint of heart!

Spend some time with or around any elderly person, and I am quite

sure that they will enlighten you about their struggles in daily

life, not to mention the other multiple types of the physically

challenged individuals.

In the U.S. today, we have become a very "ME" only society, with

not much regard for anyone else. In some instances, even in our

own families. I also remember the abuse and all out hateful

attitude from some, to the veterans returning from Vietnam.

That type of mentality, IMO, sure seems to resemble the attitude

towards the ADA / elderly / challenged community.

To me, it is not "What is this country coming to", ..rather, "What

have WE already become?" Again, ..God help us!

JEFF: My sincerest condolences to you & your family on the loss

of your momma! :-(

Been there and done that! It sucks!

 

[mark handler]

. But there are limits and screwing up the entire place for the sake of the <1% is overboard. Requiring a chair lift for pools to accommodate <.01% of the population is the tail wagging the dog.

Yes you do need to do some fact checking; try 19 percent. The numbers keep growing as the population grows older

Population Distribution

54 million

Number of people who have a disability. 54 million

They represent 19 percent of the civilian noninstitutionalized population.

By age —

•5 percent of children 5 to 17 have disabilities.

•10 percent of people 18 to 64 have disabilities.

•38 percent of adults 65 and older have disabilities.

Source: U.S. Census Bureau

 

[ICE]

That's a lot of wheelchairs. I wonder what the census bureau includes in the list of disabilities.

I don't advocate an abandonment of ADA, I just think that many mistakes have been made in the approach to the problem.

Here is an example: 400K sq ft. warehouse with 3500 sq.ft. of ADA compliant office space. The tenant decided to build 600 sq.ft. of office space at the far end of the building, including a bathroom. A door to the exterior was installed so a ramp was required. The elevation change is large and so too is the ramp. The required ramp cost as much as the office space.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

Here is an example: 400K sq ft. warehouse with 3500 sq.ft. of ADA compliant office space. The tenant decided to build 600 sq.ft. of office space at the far end of the building, including a bathroom. A door to the exterior was installed so a ramp was required. The elevation change is large and so too is the ramp. The required ramp cost as much as the office space.

That could just as easily be an example of poor design/planning as adverse effects of accessibility regulations. Is there a 20% exemption in CBC code for remodel projects? I find ignorance is responsible for more costs than the price of self-education in most cases.

 

[mark handler]

That's a lot of wheelchairs. I wonder what the census bureau includes in the list of disabilities. .

Wheelchair Users in US

1 out of 250 persons

US Dept of Health

They do not have a listing for Walkers Canes and other mobility disabilities

Here is an example: 400K sq ft. warehouse with 3500 sq.ft. of ADA compliant office space. The tenant decided to build 600 sq.ft. of office space at the far end of the building, including a bathroom. A door to the exterior was installed so a ramp was required. The elevation change is large and so too is the ramp. The required ramp cost as much as the office space.

California, not the ADA and not the IBC, requires all exits to be accessible.

The ADA and the IBC allows for a percent yo be accessible.

Don't blame the ADA for a CA requirement.

 

[brudgers]

Very well stated Jeff! IMO, there is a disconnect with a "me" vs. "them" mentality. Anyone who has ever been around or associated with the elderly or physically or mentally challenged (us code officials notwithstanding) certainly recognizes the challenges in the built environment. Until you are personally affected by some type of temporary or permanent limitation, I do not know if you (figuratively speaking) can appreciate some type of accomodations that will assist your everyday life. I would say that most of us on here are from the Baby Boom of the late 50's. As we get older, .."if" we get older, I can only hope that we had enough foresight to try and improve our surroundings by the resources available to us. Growing older is not for the faint of heart! Spend some time with or around any elderly person, and I am quite sure that they will enlighten you about their struggles in daily life, not to mention the other multiple types of the physically challenged individuals. In the U.S. today, we have become a very "ME" only society, with not much regard for anyone else. In some instances, even in our own families. I also remember the abuse and all out hateful attitude from some, to the veterans returning from Vietnam. That type of mentality, IMO, sure seems to resemble the attitude towards the ADA / elderly / challenged community. To me, it is not "What is this country coming to", ..rather, "What have WE already become?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xZOrWK6d4g

 

[Msradell]

do like I do, when I see someone parked in a handicapped space without a handicap decal I call the police. I called once for a state trooper vehicle parked in a space. And then wait for the police to arrive and to hear their excuse. Amazing the things you hear ...

The problem is in many cases the vehicle does have the appropriate marking but the user is not. They're using someone else's placard, have fraudulently obtained one or have just changed the date on an expired one! Part of the problem is the actual placard in most states has no identification as to who should be using it. One shining exception is South Carolina that puts a picture of the person who obtained the placard directly on it for identification purposess! Another issue is that some states issue two placards instead of just one which certainly encourages fraudulent use.

Nothing better than a handicapped person pointing a finger at someone they do not consider handicapped enough to receive handicap consideration.

Certainly better than somebody who isn't handicapped making fun of those who are!

 

[brudgers]

The problem is in many cases the vehicle does have the appropriate marking but the user is not. They're using someone else's placard, have fraudulently obtained one or have just changed the date on an expired one! Part of the problem is the actual placard in most states has no identification as to who should be using it. One shining exception is South Carolina that puts a picture of the person who obtained the placard directly on it for identification purposess! Another issue is that some states issue two placards instead of just one which certainly encourages fraudulent use. Certainly better than somebody who isn't handicapped making fun of those who are!

You have successfully made an argument for more Accessible spaces.

 

[ICE]

Certainly better than somebody who isn't handicapped making fun of those who are!

I don't know but I've been told, that it's an insult to use the term "handicapped." Another rule is that the disadvantaged parking logo that's painted on the pavement can't be more than 3' in dimension because it draws undo attention to the disadvantaged individual. There are signs galore, stripes and more but if that paint covers more than 3' a lawsuit can follow, and has.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

I don't know but I've been told, that it's an insult to use the term "handicapped." Another rule is that the disadvantaged parking logo that's painted on the pavement can't be more than 3' in dimension because it draws undo attention to the disadvantaged individual. There are signs galore, stripes and more but if that paint covers more than 3' a lawsuit can follow, and has.

Where is snopes when you them?

If you are looking for the correct nomenclature, I might suggest that while I am disadvantaged (economically) in several ways, I am not disabled. Having ability and or access versus having advantage are dissimilar.

 

[ICE]

Well actually I'm not looking for the correct nomenclature. I'm not on any one side of any issue regarding ADA. For one thing, I don't know much about it other than the little an inspector must apply. For another it's not interesting for me as it is for so many others that visit the forum. I chimed in to get the thread moving again and that's it. I agree with what I said but that's just me so don't take it personal.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

I agree with what I said but that's just me so don't take it personal.

I try hard not to, and didn't...but as you said, some in the forum take certain topics more seriously than others.