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Pool fence egress

B

beach

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I posted this on the pool/spa board but I think it's more of an egress issue with the building code....

I have a pool in a condo project that, for security reasons, the association wants to put self-latching locks, keyed both sides, on their self-closing gates. Basically, you would not be able to egress the pool area without a key. I can't find any clear cut answer in the code (Calif.).... I know the "Latch" must be min. 5' above grade with a self closing gate opening out. Egress requirements in the code typically refer to exiting out of a building, but what if you are already outside? Do the egress requirements pertain to outside gated areas? Does distance from a building and a "safe refuge" come into play? I also looked at 1004.8 Outdoor areas but i'm not sure that section pertains to pool areas....

Any help would be appreciated!
 
In the past, we have required compliance with Chapter 10 for the pool fence enclosure. Since then, we had this debate on the other forum, where it was argued that an outdoor pool itself doesn't really have an occupancy group, even though the code gives you occupant loads for the pool and deck. So, not much help from me, you are going to have to pick a side, and be able to live with it. I would still require compliance with Chapter 10. Emergency exiting would not necessarilly be restricted to being indoors. JMHO
 
Thanks fatboy,

I'm kind of leaning the other way and allowing it, for a few reasons......

1) I don't see any inherent danger that would require egress from an outdoor pool area regardless of what side of the fence you are on.

2) If I have multiple gates and followed chap. 10, the gates would have to have panic hardware (which I've never seen on pool gates)or single action lever hardware (Lever for ADA)

3) The existing requirement for a gate latch a min. 5' above grade wouldn't comply with Chap. 10 in any other scenario or ADA egress requirements (Latch too high).

Maybe I just answered my own question?
 
I agree with Fatboy. We require compliance with Chapter 10 for the pool enclosure. A lock on the outside of the gate is fine, but I would require panic hardware on the inside. There are other ways to accomplish what they want to accomplish.
 
Thanks tt!

Around here, just about everyone uses a standard gravity gate latch, if you combine that with panic hardware, you would have to unlatch the latch, hold it open with one hand, and push the panic hardware. Does your jurisdiction allow gravity latches?
 
AH HA!

2007 CBC Section 3118B.2 Gates. Bla,bla,bla,bla,bla…..yada, yada, yada….

  1. Bla Bla
  2. Yada, Yada
  3. The pool enclosure shall have at least one means of egress without a key for emergency purposes. Unless all gates or doors are so equipped, those gates and/or doors which will allow egress without a key shall be clearly and conspicuously labeled in letters at least 4 inches (102 mm) high “EMERGENCY EXIT”.
Too bad our building dept. is still on the 1997 Uniform swimming pool, spa and Hot tub Code..........
 
Is the pool area an egress path for a building (such as a pool house) that leads to the public way?

We had a similar situation here with a State official that was requiring locks similar to what you mention. The pool was accessory to some new appartments and the state official was requiring things as though it was a "public" pool. It wasn't my project, but the discussion around the office was that they were trying to figure out if they could remove the exit sign from the pool house door that led to the pool area outside. With the occupant load, they could remove the exit sign, but the way it ended up, the state backed down when we showed them that it wasn't technically a "public" pool (by definition).

They ended up with the typical latches as required for private pools (the way I recall).

If it is just an outdoor pool with an enclosure, I would agree with beach on this one.
 
beach said:
AH HA!2007 CBC Section 3118B.2 Gates. Bla,bla,bla,bla,bla…..yada, yada, yada….

  1. Bla Bla
  2. Yada, Yada
  3. The pool enclosure shall have at least one means of egress without a key for emergency purposes. Unless all gates or doors are so equipped, those gates and/or doors which will allow egress without a key shall be clearly and conspicuously labeled in letters at least 4 inches (102 mm) high “EMERGENCY EXIT”.
Too bad our building dept. is still on the 1997 Uniform swimming pool, spa and Hot tub Code..........
Click to expand...
Beach

You have the wrong chapter (31B), check the matrix adoption table for chapter 31B. You need to be in chapter 31.

CBC 2007

Chapter 31 SPECIAL CONSTRUCTION

SECTION 3109

SWIMMING POOL ENCLOSURES

AND SAFETY DEVICES

3109.4.1.7 Gates. Access gates shall comply with the

requirements of Sections 3109.4.1.1 through 3109.4.1.6

and shall be equipped to accommodate a locking device.

Pedestrian access gates shall open outward away from

the pool and shall be self-closing and have a self-latching

device. Gates other than pedestrian access gates shall

have a self-latching device. Release mechanisms shall be

in accordance with Sections 1008.1.8 and 1109.13.

Where the release mechanism of the self-latching device

is located less than 54 inches (1372 mm) from the bottom

of the gate, the release mechanism shall be located on the

pool side of the gate at least 3 inches (76 mm) below the

top of the gate, and the gate and barrier shall have no

opening greater than 0.5 inch (12.7 mm) within 18 inches

(457 mm) of the release mechanism.

1008.1.8 Door operations. Except as specifically permitted

by this section egress doors shall be readily openable from

the egress side without the use of a key or special knowledge

or effort.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
In our state a pool that is common area for condos, apartments, etc. is a public pool period. Basically the only pool that is private is at a single family home. Don't know what the California laws say.
 
You could get really creative and use the landscape irrigation system as the pool area sprinkler system in an emergency... :D
 
In our state a pool that is common area for condos, apartments, etc. is a public pool period. Basically the only pool that is private is at a single family home. Don't know what the California laws say.
Click to expand...
California is the same.
 
Condo associations are just worried that if it's called a 'public' pool that they'll have to let the riff-raff in for a swim. :)
 
If the public isn't allowed to swim there, then I guess it's not public.

The State saw our point and backed off. Actually, the gal that came to do the inspection on the pool was new at it, and was only quoting what she had been told to look for. After our inspector went over the state laws on it for private pools, she put her tail between her legs and went home.
 
I can't think of a very many pools where any "Joe Public" can walk up and use a pool...... Hotel? no, apartment? no, school? no, YMCA? no, Condo? no. Gym? no....

Community pool? probably...... if they are signed up, etc. but I don't think you can just walk up and jump in. I think the only thing not accessible by the general public would be a SFD, IMHO
 
Glennman CBO said:
If the public isn't allowed to swim there, then I guess it's not public.The State saw our point and backed off. Actually, the gal that came to do the inspection on the pool was new at it, and was only quoting what she had been told to look for. After our inspector went over the state laws on it for private pools, she put her tail between her legs and went home.
Click to expand...
CBC 2010 3109.4 Residential swimming pools. Residential swimming pools shall comply with Sections 3109.4.1 through 3109.4.3.
 
The pool at apartments, and condos I think would be private, since the people live there.

Pools at gyms, schools, and hotels? Well, I would think these are for the general public. I may be wrong here. I am only reasoning things out, without hanging a hat on an actual definition. In hotels, no, people cannot just come in off the street, but they can get a room, or join a gym and have use of the pool. You can't just go to an apartment building or a condo and get a room and have free access to the pool.
 
These are the definitions from the Calif. code

2007 CBC Section 3109.4.4.1 definitions:"Public Swimming Pool means a swimming pool operated for the use of the general public with or without charge, or for the use of the members or guests of a private club. Public swimming pool does not include a swimming pool located on the grounds of a private single-family home."

3109.4.4 Private swimming pools (statewide). "...........................................These standards become applicable commencing January 1, 1998, to a private single-family home for which a construction permit for a new swimming pool has been issued on or after January 1, 1998."

3101B SCOPE (This section is only adopted by DHS per the Matrix)

Notes:

1. Examples of public pools include those located in the followinig: commercial building, hotel, motel resort, automobile and trailer park, automobile court, mobile home park, campground, apartment house, condominium, townhouse, homeowner association, club, community buildiing, public or private school, gymnasium and health establishments.
 
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