Public Toilets required?

[Mech]

2009 IBC

Several year old building, originally classified as Group M. No idea if CO ever obtained, but doubtful since the drywall in this space has not been installed, and neither have the restroom fixtures. The sanitary piping has been stubbed up through the floor in the rear of the building in the location of the originally proposed unisex restroom.

The use group is now being changed to a B for a "Pick-up / To-go" only food establishment. No tables are provided for eating.

Is a public restroom required? I've never seen restrooms available in these type of establishments, but that's not to say they aren't required. Per the definition below, I would think that a restroom is required since the front 10 ft of the space is for food pick-up and therefore the building is intended for public utilization.

Thoughts? Exceptions?

Thanks in advance!

2902.3 Required public toilet facilities. Customers, patrons and visitors shall be provided with public toilet facilities in structures and tenant spaces intended for public utilization. The number of plumbing fixtures located within the required toilet facilities shall be provided in accordance with Section 2902.1 for all users. Employees shall be provided with toilet facilities in all occupancies. Employee toilet facilities shall either be separate or combined employee and public toilet facilities.

 

[fatboy]

Tough one. I've been plenty of places where the crowd waiting for food to go easily exceeds 15, and thus would require separate facilities. But, I would probably lean towards allowing the accessable unisex.

 

[Mech]

I was actually trying to avoid providing one since the current building layout would require customers to walk through the food prep area to reach the restroom, which is a no-no.

 

[fatboy]

One still has to be provided................

 

[mark handler]

If the business has customers, patrons and visitors in their business then they must allow the public use of the toilet facilities in that space because they have public utilization, And It must be accessible.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Had a couple like this myself where they wanted to convert a house garage to a drive-up pick up. must have public rest rooms.

 

[steveray]

Agree...must be provided.

 

[Dr. J]

A toilet for all the people represented by the square footage of the Establishment is required by code. Requiring the owner to open up that toilet for Any Joe Blow is not.

Just saying I agree a toilet is required, but the owner can limit who can use the toilet.

 

[mark handler]

A toilet for all the people represented by the square footage of the Establishment is required by code. Requiring the owner to open up that toilet for Any Joe Blow is not. Just saying I agree a toilet is required, but the owner can limit who can use the toilet.

If the business has customers, patrons and visitors in their business then they must allow the public use of the toilet

 

[north star]

* * * *

"The business has customers, patrons and visitors in their business then they must allow the public use of the toilet.""

The owner / manager could simply place a sign on the door saying "Out of Order",

or tell customers that the restroom is "Out of Order"......How many customers are

actually going to go check to ensure their ' code rights ' are being adhered to?

Just saying...

While the building code DOES require that an Accessible toilet be available to

John Q. Public, ...IMO, there should be some ability of the business owner to screen

useage.

EXAMPLE: A strip center with a tenant space used as a Mercantile occupancy.

Restroom is in the rear of the space......A young female working there all alone.

( as is commonly the case in smaller retail businesses )....Is her safety & security

more important that someone having to use that restroom?....Oh yeah, this is your

daughter working there.

* * * *

 

[BSSTG]

Greetings

Here in Tx a restroom with hot water would be required per the health guys if I'm not mistaken. What I can't figure is where do folks go if they have a mobile taco or burger stand.

On restricting usage of the restroom. I've never seen in any code book that requires the restroom must be made available to the public. Lots of folks hang the "out of order" sign.

BS

 

[mark handler]

GreetingsHere in Tx a restroom with hot water would be required per the health guys if I'm not mistaken. What I can't figure is where do folks go if they have a mobile taco or burger stand.

On restricting usage of the restroom. I've never seen in any code book that requires the restroom must be made available to the public. Lots of folks hang the "out of order" sign.

BS

This is from the code:

If the business has customers, patrons and visitors in their business then they shall allow the public use of the toilet

Not the words in bold, mobile truck does not permit people "in"

"Shall" is in the code

 

[mtlogcabin]

PUBLIC OR PUBLIC UTILIZATION. In the classification of plumbing fixtures, "public " applies to fixtures in general toilet rooms of schools, gymnasiums, hotels, airports, bus and railroad stations, public buildings, bars, public comfort stations, office buildings, stadiums, stores, restaurants and other installations where a number of fixtures are installed so that their utilization is similarly unrestricted.

 

[mtlogcabin]

"This is from the code:

If the business has customers, patrons and visitors in their business then they must allow the public use of the toilet"

Not in the I-codes that I can find. What section number

 

[mark handler]

this is from the code:If the business has customers, patrons and visitors in their business then they shall allow the public use of the toilet not in the i-codes that i can find. What section number

Went off memory wording slightly different, but not the intent

ibc 2902.3

2902.4 Required public toilet facilities. Customers, patrons and visitors shall be provided with public toilet facilities in structures and tenant spaces intended for public utilization.

The accessible route to public facilities shall not pass through kitchens, storage rooms, closets or similar spaces. Employees shall be provided with toilet facilities in all occupancies.

Employee toilet facilities shall be either separate or combined employee and public toilet facilities.

INTERNATIONAL BUILDING CODE® COMMENTARY

Public facilities are required in all spaces to be used by the public, including restaurants, nightclubs, places of public assembly and business occupancies open to the public. It is inappropriate to locate them in a storage area, behind the kitchen or in other areas not open and available to the public, primarily for the safety of the occupants that are from the general public. This provision avoids placing occupants from the general public in an unfamiliar area of the building where they could be confused about the path of egress in an emergency. The code requires employees to be provided with toilet facilities in all occupancies and this can be satisfied by separate employee facilities or shared employee/public facilities.

IPC 403.4 Required public toilet facilities. Customers, patrons and visitors shall be provided with public toilet facilities in

structures and tenant spaces intended for public utilization. The accessible route to public facilities shall not pass

through kitchens, storage rooms, closets or similar spaces.

 

[Dr. J]

The words of the code hinge on “intended for public utilization”. It is not the code official making that determination. Code officials do not determine the use of a building or spaces. If the owner intends a space to be used as an office it is not up to the code official to say it is really intended for flammable storage. Similarly, if an owner does not intend a building or tenant space for public utilization, it is not up to the code official to say otherwise.

INTERNATIONAL BUILDING CODE® COMMENTARYPublic facilities are required in all spaces to be used by the public, including restaurants, nightclubs, places of public assembly and business occupancies open to the public.

While the best I can usually say of the commentaries is that they are a waste of ink, and in many cases just make stuff up, this quote reinforces what is actually written in the code. Business occupancies NOT open to the public do NOT require public restrooms. Same for restaurants, nightclubs, and places of public assembly – not all are to be used by the public. A nightclub with a big bouncer keeping out nerdy engineer types is clearly NOT open to the public. A McDonalds off the interstate IS open to the public. A municipal office building IS open to the public (all you AHJ’s let bums do a paper towel bath in your restrooms right?), an engineer’s office IS NOT open to the public. All of these are OWNER decisions, not AHJ decisions.

So, can a building owner hang a sign saying “No Public Restrooms – Customers only” - YES. Can a building owner say to the AHJ “Even though the square footage of my space says I need 4 WC, I only want to put in 1 because there are only 4 employees that will use the restroom”? NO – all 4 must be installed to meet the SF based code mandated fixture count. Can the AHJ require these to be directly off the front door – NO.

PUBLIC OR PUBLIC UTILIZATION. In the classification of plumbing fixtures, "public" applies to fixtures … so that their utilization is similarly unrestricted

If the owner decides not to have “general toilet rooms”, or has restricted the use of the fixtures, they are obviously not “unrestricted”, and therefore by definition, not public. This definition is for “the classification of fixtures”. It is there only to determine when other sections of the code apply (tempered water at lavs, public vs private use factors for sizing, etc). It is not a laundry list of places where public toilet rooms are required.

 

[DwightB]

One popular drive-in restaurant (most installations have no inside dining) in this area has a public accessible toilet at the rear of the building, no problem to walk around and use it. That puts it near other plumbing they have in the building. Would this work with your plan?

 

[Yankee]

Dr. J please give an example of a business that has no "Customers, patrons or visitors"?

Here is an example -- a jewelry store that requires someone to unlock the door to allow a customer inside. Yes, they don't have to allow someone in if that someone knocks on the door and asks to use the bathroom, but once they allow someone inside they have to allow use of the bathroom.

The bathroom has to be available to anyone that is permitted to enter the business

 

[Dr. J]

Here is an example -- a jewelry store that requires someone to unlock the door to allow a customer inside. Yes, they don't have to allow someone in if that someone knocks on the door and asks to use the bathroom, but once they allow someone inside they have to allow use of the bathroom.The bathroom has to be available to anyone that is permitted to enter the business

Agree 100% Perfect example of an owner determining that his business is not intended for public utilization. Yes, there needs to be plumbing fixtures for the occupant load of the tenant space, and customers make up a large part of that example's occupant load, therefore the toilets are indeed for the customer's use, but there is no requirement for a public toilet room.

Note that several posters seem to be saying that your example is illegal - the jewelry store owner MUST provide a public toilet room and let anybody who knocks on the door use their restroom. That is what I am arguing against.

 

[yuanyelss]

Requiring the owner to open up that toilet for Any Joe Blow is not.A toilet for all the people represented by the square footage of the Establishment is required by code.

 

[hlfireinspector]

I am going to throw a curve in this one. Popular drive up fast food joint (starts with SO_ _ C) now has outside seating for eating not in your vechile. How can they not provide public restrooms?

 

[Yankee]

Agree 100% Perfect example of an owner determining that his business is not intended for public utilization. Yes, there needs to be plumbing fixtures for the occupant load of the tenant space, and customers make up a large part of that example's occupant load, therefore the toilets are indeed for the customer's use, but there is no requirement for a public toilet room.Note that several posters seem to be saying that your example is illegal - the jewelry store owner MUST provide a public toilet room and let anybody who knocks on the door use their restroom. That is what I am arguing against.

You are getting stuck up on the word "public". Public is everyone in the store including the employees, as you would use it to determine benchmarks for having required egress in this building populated by THE PUBLIC.

 

[JBI]

Dr. J, Generally love to read what you have to say, but every time this subject comes up you go off on this conspiratorial stuff that is waaaaaay out there. I have, for many years now, used a tax preparer (the one with the 'cubic' name). This 'B' occupancy is located on Main Street, USA. Customers are in and out all day long, hence facilities must be made available to them. Nowhere in the Code, and no one I've seen on this board advocates forcing this 'B' occupancy to provide that these facilities be made available to indigents seeking a 'sink bath'. Limiting the use to 'customers' and/or 'patrons' is perfectly acceptable.

 

[jim baird]

"...an example of a business that has no "Customers, patrons or visitors..."

There is one here. An "artisan sausage" maker, who has only four employees, markets online and delivers to customers, needs only one unisex restroom for use of employees.