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Question for plan reviewers..............today's rant

JPohling said:
Here is the previous correction for the plan reviewer where he wanted the angled path to the exit door changed to an orthogonal path. The previous iteration had a short diagonal instead of the 90 degree jog. Max exit access dim at 76'. 200' allowed. Then upon this resubmital the nightstand issue was added as a correction. This previous path started at the face of nightstand and no comment was made at that time.
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The line of thinking that I've been exposed to - and one I now follow - is that the path should follow natural paths of travel if vision is occluded (by smoke) - hence, the path can follow walls, or navigate obvious obstacles. Not sure how it applies here, but as others have stated, this is not a hill to die on.
 
I started out under the SBCCI and right angles is how I was taught in classes how to calculate the travel distance length. When I came west and started using the UBC and the diagonal method was used and taught it took a while to accept it. With the 200 ft plus travel distance requirements how you measured it rarely made a difference if it was code compliant or not. Then ICC came in with the Common Path of Travel requirements of 75 ft travel distance, and single exit travel distances it is more critical in how the travel distance path is measured. I measure the distance at the wall and if it meets the distance then it will work unless they install a maze in the room.
 
JPohling said:
2017 Ohio Building Code in play.

My question has to do with the measurement of travel distance. This is for a mercantile tenant. This is a mattress store that has bed displays with nightstands adjacent to each bed setup. Our travel distance measurement has been taken from the face of the nightstand from the most remote groupings within the space. Our max travel distance measures anywhere from 60' to 80' from these locations. The initial round of comments were addressed and we were expecting permit approval. The third party reviewer comes back with a single correction that: the measurement must be from the most remote point (the wall surface beyond the nightstand) so this will add another 2' to each measurement.

Non sprinkled building so 200' is our maximum distance. So it has no bearing whatsoever and has easily been corrected per their request

Ohio code language below.

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This seems like someone that is paid by the review cycles making a little extra cash or somehow we have been doing this wrong for years.
What are your opinions.
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I think the Plan Reviewer was looking for a Simple, Straightforward approach for a measurement that would not change or be affected by temporary Furniture Displays.
Seems like you thought it would be helpful to illustrate the "Proposed" store layout that probably did show the aisles and how difficult the "Obstacle Course might be.

I think your approach is sensible

Perhaps the person thought you wouldn't want to provide a new layout for an Updated CO every time you "rearrange the furniture.

I don't know what they were thinking, but I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that they were nit-picking
 
JPohling said:
Here is the previous correction for the plan reviewer where he wanted the angled path to the exit door changed to an orthogonal path. The previous iteration had a short diagonal instead of the 90 degree jog. Max exit access dim at 76'. 200' allowed. Then upon this resubmital the nightstand issue was added as a correction. This previous path started at the face of nightstand and no comment was made at that time.
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I would take a ruler and place a stop point • in the center of the asile rigth of the u-shped counter and draw another line to the center of the exit doors at an angle. That would be the route taken to exit the mattress store, if they are within a couple of feet, 76-77ft I'm moving on to catch bigger fish.

Unless your in the army and you walk like the drill sargent calls out, nobody leaves a building to the egress path as drawn. As the crow flies is not taken literally, no jumping on mattresses to get out. With that said, a store could install egress path lines, big foot decals on the floor or different floor coverings like the path in the picture.

I'm pretty sure I'm the only one that calculates the path like this from reading all of your post.
 
[BE] MERCHANDISE PAD. A merchandise pad is an area for display of merchandise surrounded by aisles, permanent fixtures or walls. Merchandise pads contain elements such as nonfixed and moveable fixtures, cases, racks, counters and partitions as indicated in Section 105.2 from which customers browse or shop.

1018.4 Aisle accessways in Group M.
An aisle accessway shall be provided on not less than one side of each element within the merchandise pad. The minimum clear width for an aisle accessway not required to be accessible shall be 30 inches (762 mm). The required clear width of the aisle accessway shall be measured perpendicular to the elements and merchandise within the merchandise pad. The 30-inch (762 mm) minimum clear width shall be maintained to provide a path to an adjacent aisle or aisle accessway. The common path of egress travel shall not exceed 30 feet (9144 mm) from any point in the merchandise pad.
 
remove furnishers as they change. NFPA 101 has information as it relates to measurement of path of travels especially as it relates to a fire fighter in smoke filled conditions- 12 inches off wall if i rememebr correctly,,,,,only 32 years of floor crawling in smoke filled enviroments - --- codes are written for first responders as well.... give us a chance when everything has gone to hell (fire)
 
Builder Bob said:
remove furnishers as they change. NFPA 101 has information as it relates to measurement of path of travels especially as it relates to a fire fighter in smoke filled conditions- 12 inches off wall if i rememebr correctly,,,,,only 32 years of floor crawling in smoke filled enviroments - --- codes are written for first responders as well.... give us a chance when everything has gone to hell (fire)
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Makes Sense, the explanation I heard as to why we use those 90 degree schematic turns and Not a straight line is because you feel and follow the walls when you can't see your hand in front of you.
 
Sifu said:
Came across this gem today on a review. Just wanted to share, we can all use a smile every now and then.
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That must have been drawn by the same architect I used to encounter at my previous job. He had a tendency to draw and measure paths of exit access travel through solid walls. "But if I measure it through the doors and corridors it will be over the maximum limit!"

:duh:
 
Yankee Chronicler said:
That must have been drawn by the same architect I used to encounter at my previous job. He had a tendency to draw and measure paths of exit access travel through solid walls. "But if I measure it through the doors and corridors it will be over the maximum limit!"

:duh:
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I remember your story about them, I figured you would appreciate it.
 
steveray said:
Hope they don't need 75' CPET...That'll be close.....Thanks for sharing...
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Clearly the people who are going to use the space are in the Spirit World and can walk through walls. The Code Official will neeed to discern the INTENT of the Code and determine if this is complaint
 
hahaha wow! My guess is that may be a POT polyline that was based upon a different layout and that line should be turned off and the proper line turned on. But pretty comical.
 
Genduct said:
Makes Sense, the explanation I heard as to why we use those 90 degree schematic turns and Not a straight line is because you feel and follow the walls when you can't see your hand in front of you.
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I think it was the NFPA Handbook that said to start 12" off the wall at the most remote point and then measure along a rectilinear path of travel. That's how I have always done it.

ICC IBC Commentary addresses path of travel distance measurement in a couple of places. Commentary on IBC 1017.2:

When measuring travel distance, it is important to consider
the natural path of exit access travel [see Commentary
Figure 1017.3(1)]. In many cases, the actual layout
of furnishings and equipment is not known or is not identified
on the plans submitted with the permit application.
In such instances, it may be necessary to measure travel
distance using the legs of a right triangle instead of the
hypotenuse [see Commentary Figure 1017.3(2)]. Since
most people tend to migrate to more open spaces while
egressing, measurement of the natural path of exit
access travel typically excludes floor areas within 1 foot
(305 mm) of walls, corners, columns and other permanent
construction. Where the travel path includes passage
through a doorway, the natural route is generally
measured through the centerline of door openings.
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Commentary for IBC 1017.3:

The length of exit access travel, as measured from the
most remote point within a structure to an exit, is limited
to restrict the amount of time that the occupant is
exposed to a potential fire condition [see Commentary
Figure 1017.3(1)]. The route must be assumed to be
the natural path of travel without obstruction. This
commonly results in a rectilinear path similar to what
can be experienced in most occupancies, such as a
schoolroom or an office with rows of desks [see Commentary
Figure 1017.3(2)]. The “arc” method, using an
“as the crow flies” linear measurement, must be used
with caution, as it seldom represents typical floor
design and room layout and, in most cases, would not
be the natural, unobstructed path.
The travel distance is measured from every occupiable
point on a floor to the closest exit. While each
occupant may be required to have access to a second
or third exit, the travel distance limitation is only applicable
to the distance to the nearest exit. In effect, this
means that the distance an occupant must travel to the
second or third exit is not regulated.
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Somewhere, I think I have read that the "natural path of travel" can follow an arc around corners, at a radius of one foot off the corner. I have never done that -- I use all right angles, and every exit diagram I've seen in the past 35 years (except one, which I reviewed just last week) has used either right angles -- or totally screwed the pooch and just drew diagonals everywhere. Even the guy who drew lines of travel through solid walls used a rectilinear layout.
 
Yankee Chronicler said:
That must have been drawn by the same architect I used to encounter at my previous job. He had a tendency to draw and measure paths of exit access travel through solid walls. "But if I measure it through the doors and corridors it will be over the maximum limit!"
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That architect's relative practices in PA. On their plan, they went through walls to maintain 75 ft to the nearest fire extinguisher.
 
Using a 1 ft. radius at a corner will only gain 2 1/2" at each turn. Not worth the drawing and measuring hassle.

The only time I have been allowed to use diagonal lines in a path of travel was to go diagonally across the driving lanes in a parking garage.
 
Mech said:
That architect's relative practices in PA. On their plan, they went through walls to maintain 75 ft to the nearest fire extinguisher.
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That is because they were following the SPIRIT of the Code And We Know Spirits can PASS THROUGH solid objects that would normally be considered an Obstruction. Makes Sense, Doesn't it ?
 
Sifu said:
Came across this gem today on a review. Just wanted to share, we can all use a smile every now and then.
View attachment 12825
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I wonder if that was drawn by an architect whose work I used to review at my previous job. I have commented previously that he drew paths of egress travel thriough solid walls. This is the only other example I've ever seen.
 
Yankee Chronicler said:
I wonder if that was drawn by an architect whose work I used to review at my previous job. I have commented previously that he drew paths of egress travel thriough solid walls. This is the only other example I've ever seen.
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WOW the 2 "S" words that come to mind are Sloppy or Stupid
There is also another 4 letter S word, but that would be unprofessional
 
I've been called in on several completed theatre projects where the architect drew sight lines through seat backs, people, and part height walls. One even claimed the drawings had been reviewed and approved by the owner.

The problem is, when there are design errors like CPET drawn through walls or sightlines through people, I always expect and usually find many more errors. Why an architect thinks they can design a building with no experience with that type of building is beyond me. I thought that was one of the basic tenets of the registered design professional - know what you can do.
 
bill1952 said:
I've been called in on several completed theatre projects where the architect drew sight lines through seat backs, people, and part height walls. One even claimed the drawings had been reviewed and approved by the owner.

The problem is, when there are design errors like CPET drawn through walls or sightlines through people, I always expect and usually find many more errors. Why an architect thinks they can design a building with no experience with that type of building is beyond me. I thought that was one of the basic tenets of the registered design professional - know what you can do.
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You guessed it!. Very small, type V, AHJ owned/operated building. 34 cited comments.
 
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