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RFS Adoption

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Horn Lake - D.C. Gillespie, 88, founder of Paradise Gardens Cemetery, formerly of West Memphis, AR, passed away Monday, April 4, at the Med Burn Unit. D.C., nicknamed “Hoss”, was star point guard from the 9th-12th grade. He continued to play basketball in the Navy and also in league play in the Memphis area until he was 35 years old. D.C. served in the U.S. Navy Medical Corps during World WII where he was stationed in San Diego, CA and New Guinea. He eventually settled in West Memphis, AR and established Broadway Motors. In 1957, D.C. developed Paradise Gardens Cemetery at Edmondson, AR which he operated until1997. He served on the Arkansas State Cemetery Board and was President of the Arkansas Cemetery Association. D.C. was the Program Concession manager at Southland Greyhound Park from its inception until his retirement from Southland in 1994. D.C. will always be remembered for his jokes / practical jokes and his longtime parrot companion, Timer, that often accompanied him on his shoulder. D.C. is survived by his wife Barbara Shannon Gillespie, his daughter Cheryl Roberson of Antioch, TN, and his son, Don C. Gillespie and his wife Irene of Lexington, SC. DC leaves 3 grandchildren and 2 great-grandchildren. A very special thanks to North Delta Hospice Care . In lieu of flowers memorials may be made to St. Jude Children Hospital or a charity of the donor’s choice. Roller-Citizens Funeral home, West Memphis, AR. is in charge of services and burial will be in Crittenden Memorial Park, Marion, AR. Visitation will be from 6-8 p.m. Thursday evening and funeral services will be at 1 p.m.Friday in the chapel. Online guestbook: www.rollerfuneralhomes. com Roller-Citizens Funeral Home (870)735-1000

Another sensless fire death. Could RFS have prevented this death. Only one way to find out!
 
Are there deaths due to fire? The answer is yes but the real question is how do we reduce the total loss of life and how does society pay for it. I will suggest that if we took the money spent on residential fire sprinklers and used it to address public health issues and other causes of loss of life that we would save more lives.

hlfireinspector has identified one of the ways to bias the decision making process related to risk reduction. You simply make people aware of each loss of life due to fire. Thus the loss of life due to fire has more weight than the loss of life due to other causes. Why is there this emotional bias in the fire community? Is it because they see these deaths regularly and are more sensitive to the issue or are there other motives? In either case it behoves the rest of us to try to put this issue into perspective. It would also be nice if the fire community would try to develop a sense of perspective.
 
Mark & Hlfireinspector: I agree with both of you. I have sat and listen at the hearings, been to the pep rallies and seen just how the vote went down with ICC looking the other way. As an inspector I will enforce the code as written and adopted by which ever AHJ I work for. Keeping this whole issue in perspective is always a challange and perhaps if every home in America had sprinklers there may be no deaths. I don't believe that will ever come into being. In the mean time people have the right to choose. If a state or city deside not to mandate then that is fine. It is the way it should be. It should be a choice of a community not some national mandate.
 
If it had been left in the appendex we would be in the same place.
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I'd have to disagree with you on this point. The issue has gotten exponentially more attention since it came out of the appendix, and while adoption rates are very poor, they are still better than they had been. There is also benefit in code officials taking the time to learn about and debate the provisions, which wasn't happening before. As misconceptions are dissolved, code officials will begin to feel more comfortable running with the political football.

Keeping this whole issue in perspective is always a challange and perhaps if every home in America had sprinklers there may be no deaths. I don't believe that will ever come into being.
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One thing is for sure. You can't finish a race you never start.

I will suggest that if we took the money spent on residential fire sprinklers and used it to address public health issues and other causes of loss of life that we would save more lives.
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The same could be said of any code provision, but such issues are outside the scope of the IRC where code officials do not have influence.
 
conarb said:
Note that the article being cited as some kind of authority was written by "John Waters is co-chairman of the Pennsylvania Residential Fire Sprinkler Coalition.".
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AYPWB - And Your Point Would Be?

I did not "... cited as some kind of authority".

I posted it without comment

And the fact that he is the co-chair was clearly posted.

Are you trying to present something new or presenting what you think this is a revalation?
 
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John R. Waters

chief fire marshal Upper Merion Township

jwaters@umtownship.org

+1 610 205-8513

175 West Valley Forge Road

King of Prussia, PA 19406

John R. Waters is the Chief Fire Marshal and Director of Safety & Codes Enforcement for Upper Merion Township, Pennsylvania. Previously, he was fire protection specialist for the Albert Einstein Medical Center in Philadelphia and a career firefighter for the Lower Merion Fire Department, where he served as driver/operator. He is an instructor emeritus at the Pennsylvania Fire Academy and formerly served as adjunct instructor at the Delaware County Community College. He is a contact instructor at the National Fire Academy. He has a Bachelor’s Degree in Fire Science from the University of Maryland, College Park a Master’s Degree in Leadership from Grand Canyon University and is currently working towards a Master’s Degree in Homeland Security at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, CA. John is a graduate of the Executive Fire Officer Program at the National Fire Academy. He is a Certified Fire Protection Specialist and a member of ICC, the IAFC, and the NFPA.

Time to stop digging that hole....
 
Mark:

His credentials are better than I would have thought, you make your credibility assessments and the rest of us will all make ours from his credentials and his picture.
 
conarb said:
Mark:".... credibility assessments ...make ours from ... his picture.
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You base your credibility assessments partially based on his picture.

That says a lot about you and your comments.

Time to taKe a PILL....
 
Mark said:
You base your credibility assessments partially based on his picture.
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Yes, and it also explains why the major cause of death in fire departments is heat attacks, dietary/exercise programs would save infinitely more lives than RFS installations, it appears that he will soon be pulling into the disabled slots as he goes into Wal Mart.
 
OK folks, I think this has drifted far enough OT from RFS adoptions. Bring it back to subject, start your own thread.
 
The proponents of residential sprinklers can stack the ICC vote, but until they get the public buy in, it will go nowhere.
 
I believe that is what we are finding out. It will be interesting on 1/1/2013 how many Colorado jurisdictions actually will start enforcing RFS's as planned.
 
Sorry for the Hijack!

Permitguy you have been around this issue from the start as I as well. I don't disagree and yes one has to start a race in order to finish it. I still feel it should have been left in the appendix.
 
To answer your original question fatboy, NH has just passed a law banning local officials, fire departments and local land use boards from requiring RFS. This is unprecedented since in the past all amendments to the state building code would go through the state building code review board, not the legislature. To my knowledge this the first law in this state to specifically ban a safety device. Also, anyone violating this law could be subject to fines and possible misdemeanor charge.
 
NH09 said:
To answer your original question fatboy, NH has just passed a law banning local officials, fire departments and local land use boards from requiring RFS. This is unprecedented since in the past all amendments to the state building code would go through the state building code review board, not the legislature. To my knowledge this the first law in this state to specifically ban a safety device. Also, anyone violating this law could be subject to fines and possible misdemeanor CT has introduced some similar legislation that may have some unintended results......it seems to indicate...as written...that no local ordinance can be more strict than the building code....it might just do away with most zoning....
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Fatboy: I know you were there! MN & Baltimore! It has been a great topic from both sides! I would have to say I have learned a great deal form all of the position over the last few years. As inspectors we need to learn from these debates and deal with the out come. This sprinkler issue is not over and as permitguy stated it is a race. I tend to agree.
 
"2. Even if the cost of a fire sprinkler system were directly added to the sales price, the impact on monthly payments is insignificant after credits that reduce home insurance costs; for instance, State Farm Insurance, offers a 10 percent discount in homeowner’s insurance for properties protected with automatic sprinklers."

Whoopee! My homeowners insurance costs about $500 per year. A 10% discount would save about $50 per year (if the discount is for 10% of the entire policy,and not just 10% of the fire coverage portion). My house is about 2500 SF in area. If sprinklers could actually be installed for $2 per SF they would cost $5000. It would only take a century for a 10% insurance discount to pay for sprinklers.
 
He wasn't speaking to use of insurance discounts to pay for sprinklers. He was speaking to the effect that sprinkler installation would have on a mortgage payment if the cost were directly added to the sales price. Using your numbers, over the course of a 30 year loan, those sprinklers would cost you less than $30 a month (at 6% interest). After your $4.17 insurance savings each month, you're around $25 a month.

Granted, whether someone thinks that $25 a month is "insignificant" will vary wildly depending on their circumstances.
 
permitguy said:
Granted, whether someone thinks that $25 a month is "insignificant" will vary wildly depending on their circumstances.
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The circumstance upon which it varies is very simple.

If it's someone else's money, $25 is nothing.

It's a much bigger deal when it is your money.

But for $25 I will agree with you.

I take paypal.
 
To declare that $25.00 is basically an insignificant sum is either ignorance or arrogance--probably more than your share of both. Obviously some folks are out of touch with lending institutions policies and the housing market meltdown that we are currently in. Locally, we are currently experiencing the lowest number of new housing starts in decades with absolutely no positive signs in the forseeable future. Lenders have become very particular about buyers not exceeding debt limitations and the first time homebuyer trying to get into an entry level home is finding it increasingly difficult to qualify for a mortgage. There just is no "fat" to cut out on these homes. Not only is $25.00 a big deal, $5.00 is a big deal.

Call it a fight or race or whatever, RFS's are being turned back in state after state. And not only are they being amended out but more than a few have taken an unprecedented stance on not even allowing local jurisdictions the option of amending them back in. In the future I fully expect states to refuse to adopt the most current code published by ICC unless RFS's are eliminated. We will then see if ICC and its membership can sustain a financially viable organization with declining revenue from the sales of their codes.
 
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