Roofing code questions (before I get embarrassed asking the building inspector)

[Joe.B]

The warranty is what I would be worried about, that and the company installing the roof. Is this a cheap product with a minimal warranty or a high end product with a long warranty? Is the company that did the work a well known large company with 50+ years behind them or a small crew just working in one area? If it were my house and I paid big bucks for a high quality roof with a long (and expensive) warranty I would expect everything to be to code. If the roof fails and you go for a claim they will absolutely inspect the installation and if the find anything that is not exactly to code and warranty specs they will deny the claim. Do you think the contractor will back their work in that case or will they even be around? Your call to make.

 

[strobit]

I have been searching online for anything about roofing nails with heads less than 3/8" diameter and find nothing. Going to a big box store later and will take a tape measure.

Also compare the coil nails to the boxes used for hand nailing, which from what I have seen are a full .375"

Are you in a high wind area? Is that the basis for your concern?

No, not designated as a high wind area, but we do get some good storms occasionally with 50-70mph winds. My concerns are about longevity, warranty, and if this roof meets code.

Next step

1. call the manufacture and ask the question

2. Also ask if it remains with the nails used,,, will you honor the warranty???????

Already sent the email, awaiting a response. I want their answer in writing.

The warranty is what I would be worried about, that and the company installing the roof. Is this a cheap product with a minimal warranty or a high end product with a long warranty? Is the company that did the work a well known large company with 50+ years behind them or a small crew just working in one area? If it were my house and I paid big bucks for a high quality roof with a long (and expensive) warranty I would expect everything to be to code. If the roof fails and you go for a claim they will absolutely inspect the installation and if the find anything that is not exactly to code and warranty specs they will deny the claim. Do you think the contractor will back their work in that case or will they even be around? Your call to make.

Yes, exactly. These are relatively cheap GAF Timberline NS shingles with a modest warranty. The company I hired has been around a while with a decent track record, but they farmed out my job to what appears to be a fly-by-night subcontractor. Aside from the nails, there are several other issues with this install that are not in line with the manufacturer recommendations and may not even meet code. In ongoing discussions now about how to remedy this mess.

 

[steveray]

I would bet this is an industry problem and the vast majority of nails out there probably do not meet code.....But it is not likely an actual "problem" either....Did the Town inspect and approve it? Have you discussed it with the inspector?

 

[cda]

I would bet this is an industry problem and the vast majority of nails out there probably do not meet code.....But it is not likely an actual "problem" either....Did the Town inspect and approve it? Have you discussed it with the inspector?

ok everybody go by a roof job today

Check mail size

Post a picture

 

[cda]

ok everybody go by a roof job today

Check mail size

Post a picture

Drive by check

 

[SCBO1]

Okay, cda, I did what you instructed me to do, and the job I checked the coil nails looked like the picture on the right and measured 3/8-inch. Measured with an official Stanley 25' fat max tape measure.

 

[Joe.B]

I've checked several re-roof jobs over the last few days and all of them are using the standard roofing nail I would expect to see. I talked with the leads and nobody has seen, or even heard of, a smaller nail being meant for asphalt shingles. A mystery for sure.

 

[ICE]

The warranty likely does not cover shingles blowing off the roof.

 

[cda]

The warranty likely does not cover shingles blowing off the roof.

Especially if the wrong nails are used.

 

[strobit]

GAF got back to me and said that the manufacturer defect warranty would still be in effect, but if the damage was caused by the fasteners that they wouldn't cover it. So no 110mph wind warranty, that's for sure.

Spent some time with the building inspector today. He's very interested in the nail head discrepancy and is looking further into it, but couldn't give me an answer straight away. Turns out that I didn't need to fear being embarrassed at all, as all of my concerns have some validity and you guys were right, they more or less stick to the manufacturer instructions - which the installer failed to follow in way too many instances.

It's been a week since I met with a manager from the company on the roof. He was pretty dismissive about many of my complaints and said the nails are fine, but there are some issues that even he couldn't ignore. I asked for a new roof, still waiting to hear back.

 

[Joe.B]

GAF got back to me and said that the manufacturer defect warranty would still be in effect, but if the damage was caused by the fasteners that they wouldn't cover it. So no 110mph wind warranty, that's for sure.

Spent some time with the building inspector today. He's very interested in the nail head discrepancy and is looking further into it, but couldn't give me an answer straight away. Turns out that I didn't need to fear being embarrassed at all, as all of my concerns have some validity and you guys were right, they more or less stick to the manufacturer instructions - which the installer failed to follow in way too many instances.

It's been a week since I met with a manager from the company on the roof. He was pretty dismissive about many of my complaints and said the nails are fine, but there are some issues that even he couldn't ignore. I asked for a new roof, still waiting to hear back.

Good for you, stand and get what you paid for. Also don't ask for a final inspection with the AHJ until you are completely satisfied. Hopefully the company will come back and fix/redo their work to maintain their reputation. If not you may have to take legal action which is a bummer, oh and tell everybody you know to spread the word! "Watch out for ______________!."

 

[strobit]

Good for you, stand and get what you paid for. Also don't ask for a final inspection with the AHJ until you are completely satisfied. Hopefully the company will come back and fix/redo their work to maintain their reputation. If not you may have to take legal action which is a bummer, oh and tell everybody you know to spread the word! "Watch out for ______________!."

They have finally agreed to redo it. Meeting next week to discuss expectations.

Below is a draft of what I think I'll ask for. Any corrections, additions, or deletions that I should consider?

I’ve done some roofing, I know it is hard work, and I expect that some mistakes will happen, but it ultimately must be done to code and per GAF installation instructions for full warranty. I feel a little silly pointing out some of these things, but many are items that the subcontractor’s crew missed the first time.

• To minimize damage from moving shingle bundles, if possible I would prefer that they be delivered to the roof instead of the driveway.
• Use full ⅜” head nails
• All rotten decking replaced - if there is any question, replace it.
• If soffit insulation baffles need to be removed, replace them, or at least tell me about it
• Sink a few more nails in any loose decking - if it moves when stepped on, nail it
• Replace drip edges that were improperly nailed/holed from gutter guard fiasco
• How will all the extra holes in the top edges of fascia boards from gutter guard fiasco be sealed?
• No more mystery bumps - remove or flushly sink remaining old nails, clear decking of debris and loose nails
• New Ice&Water and felt - fully covering decking this time
• Cleanly cut holes in felt for vents/penetrations instead of roughly tearing them
• Valley metal running ALL the way down to gutter, preferably notched and bent over drip edge. I like what was done on the neighbor’s with it flattened under the ridge cap.
• Minimal gaps between drip edge pieces and between step flashings
• Starters running full length of eaves, then overlapped by rake starters
• ¼” to ¾” overhang of starters over drip edges and fully covered by shingles
• If a shingle is damaged, don’t install it and don’t unnecessarily damage installed shingles.
• Don’t cut/score installed shingles by trimming others on top of them
• Stagger between courses no less than 4”, ideally at least 5” or 6” per GAF instructions
• Shingles at the rake edge no less than __” wide
• Even exposures, shingles properly butted to and not overlapped on top of those beside them
• Lower flange of chimney flashing, either no nails or sealed/nailed only in corners to flatten edges (see neighbor’s)
• What to do about dormer flashing full of nail holes? Add 1’ dormer flashing in back where it's missing. (I can remove siding if needed.)
• If any exposed nails are necessary in flashings, seal them
• Pipe cap pitch adjusted, over shingles on sides, and lead clamped to pipe, as per F.J.Moore instructions - or leave it and I will do it
• If you can’t get bath vent connected correctly from above, tell me and I’ll take care of it from the attic

 

[Joe.B]

Eh, I don't know. If you've got an agreement from them to redo it I would just let them. Chances are they will send out their A-team. It sounds like you've got a helpful inspector I would just consider asking them to do at least one or two inspections while they are working. If this situation came up in my jurisdiction I would meet the crew in the morning shortly after they started the tear-off and I would tell them I expect to do a deck inspection before they cover it up and I would offer to do that in phases if it helps.

 

[cda]

They have finally agreed to redo it. Meeting next week to discuss expectations.

Below is a draft of what I think I'll ask for. Any corrections, additions, or deletions that I should consider?

I’ve done some roofing, I know it is hard work, and I expect that some mistakes will happen, but it ultimately must be done to code and per GAF installation instructions for full warranty. I feel a little silly pointing out some of these things, but many are items that the subcontractor’s crew missed the first time.

• To minimize damage from moving shingle bundles, if possible I would prefer that they be delivered to the roof instead of the driveway.
• Use full ⅜” head nails
• All rotten decking replaced - if there is any question, replace it.
• If soffit insulation baffles need to be removed, replace them, or at least tell me about it
• Sink a few more nails in any loose decking - if it moves when stepped on, nail it
• Replace drip edges that were improperly nailed/holed from gutter guard fiasco
• How will all the extra holes in the top edges of fascia boards from gutter guard fiasco be sealed?
• No more mystery bumps - remove or flushly sink remaining old nails, clear decking of debris and loose nails
• New Ice&Water and felt - fully covering decking this time
• Cleanly cut holes in felt for vents/penetrations instead of roughly tearing them
• Valley metal running ALL the way down to gutter, preferably notched and bent over drip edge. I like what was done on the neighbor’s with it flattened under the ridge cap.
• Minimal gaps between drip edge pieces and between step flashings
• Starters running full length of eaves, then overlapped by rake starters
• ¼” to ¾” overhang of starters over drip edges and fully covered by shingles
• If a shingle is damaged, don’t install it and don’t unnecessarily damage installed shingles.
• Don’t cut/score installed shingles by trimming others on top of them
• Stagger between courses no less than 4”, ideally at least 5” or 6” per GAF instructions
• Shingles at the rake edge no less than __” wide
• Even exposures, shingles properly butted to and not overlapped on top of those beside them
• Lower flange of chimney flashing, either no nails or sealed/nailed only in corners to flatten edges (see neighbor’s)
• What to do about dormer flashing full of nail holes? Add 1’ dormer flashing in back where it's missing. (I can remove siding if needed.)
• If any exposed nails are necessary in flashings, seal them
• Pipe cap pitch adjusted, over shingles on sides, and lead clamped to pipe, as per F.J.Moore instructions - or leave it and I will do it
• If you can’t get bath vent connected correctly from above, tell me and I’ll take care of it from the attic

Some of this stuff is extra, not normally covered in roofing cost,,,, SO are you ready to pay the extra, as are you aware of that??

Normally any new decking is an add.

Not sure of the metal valley is an extra?

The vent work, may be an add?

Some of the time consuming work, may be an add?


Who besides the city inspector is going to make sure all this is done, and the city inspector, I do not think will check everything on your list???


You may need to camp on your front and back yard, with a video camera, to let them know they are being watched.

 

[strobit]

You guys are right, thanks for the feedback. I'll remove what are essentially just complaints from last time and expect that their new work will meet code/manufacturer instructions. I will insist on true 3/8" head nails, that the insufficient decking is repaired, and that they somehow remedy all the extra nail holes in the tops of the fascia boards/drip edges from the initial crew's gutter guard mess up (they bent it out of the way and then unsuccessfully tried to nail it flat again).

If you can't tell already, I was astonishly disappointed with the quality of work of the subcontractors they hired, but they will be sending their own crew this time. They did a decent job on many of my neighbors' roofs, so the results should be dramatically better. And I'll talk with the inspector about checking on it in progress.

They've said that they will cover a certain amount of new decking, but if we go over, any idea how much extra per sheet of OSB is normally charged?

 

[Joe.B]

Here prices had shot way way up, but have settled back down. 3-4 years ago was the last time I bought a sheet and I think a 4x8 sheet of 7/16" was about $10 for OSB and $13 for plywood. Early this year it started going crazy and at one point was over $100 per sheet. I think now it's in the $30-40 range and still going down. I'm on the west coast though so I have no idea if it will be similar for you.

 

[cda]

You guys are right, thanks for the feedback. I'll remove what are essentially just complaints from last time and expect that their new work will meet code/manufacturer instructions. I will insist on true 3/8" head nails, that the insufficient decking is repaired, and that they somehow remedy all the extra nail holes in the tops of the fascia boards/drip edges from the initial crew's gutter guard mess up (they bent it out of the way and then unsuccessfully tried to nail it flat again).

If you can't tell already, I was astonishly disappointed with the quality of work of the subcontractors they hired, but they will be sending their own crew this time. They did a decent job on many of my neighbors' roofs, so the results should be dramatically better. And I'll talk with the inspector about checking on it in progress.

They've said that they will cover a certain amount of new decking, but if we go over, any idea how much extra per sheet of OSB is normally charged?

before rates went up

I was told for about a 2000 sq ft house,,

one story, not much pitch

To Re deck would cost $5000

 

[my250r11]

They have finally agreed to redo it. Meeting next week to discuss expectations.

Below is a draft of what I think I'll ask for. Any corrections, additions, or deletions that I should consider?

I’ve done some roofing, I know it is hard work, and I expect that some mistakes will happen, but it ultimately must be done to code and per GAF installation instructions for full warranty. I feel a little silly pointing out some of these things, but many are items that the subcontractor’s crew missed the first time.

• To minimize damage from moving shingle bundles, if possible I would prefer that they be delivered to the roof instead of the driveway.
• Use full ⅜” head nails
• All rotten decking replaced - if there is any question, replace it.
• If soffit insulation baffles need to be removed, replace them, or at least tell me about it
• Sink a few more nails in any loose decking - if it moves when stepped on, nail it
• Replace drip edges that were improperly nailed/holed from gutter guard fiasco
• How will all the extra holes in the top edges of fascia boards from gutter guard fiasco be sealed?
• No more mystery bumps - remove or flushly sink remaining old nails, clear decking of debris and loose nails
• New Ice&Water and felt - fully covering decking this time
• Cleanly cut holes in felt for vents/penetrations instead of roughly tearing them
• Valley metal running ALL the way down to gutter, preferably notched and bent over drip edge. I like what was done on the neighbor’s with it flattened under the ridge cap.
• Minimal gaps between drip edge pieces and between step flashings
• Starters running full length of eaves, then overlapped by rake starters
• ¼” to ¾” overhang of starters over drip edges and fully covered by shingles
• If a shingle is damaged, don’t install it and don’t unnecessarily damage installed shingles.
• Don’t cut/score installed shingles by trimming others on top of them
• Stagger between courses no less than 4”, ideally at least 5” or 6” per GAF instructions
• Shingles at the rake edge no less than __” wide
• Even exposures, shingles properly butted to and not overlapped on top of those beside them
• Lower flange of chimney flashing, either no nails or sealed/nailed only in corners to flatten edges (see neighbor’s)
• What to do about dormer flashing full of nail holes? Add 1’ dormer flashing in back where it's missing. (I can remove siding if needed.)
• If any exposed nails are necessary in flashings, seal them
• Pipe cap pitch adjusted, over shingles on sides, and lead clamped to pipe, as per F.J.Moore instructions - or leave it and I will do it
• If you can’t get bath vent connected correctly from above, tell me and I’ll take care of it from the attic

You are on your way to being an inspector for roofs lol.

Drip edge should almost always be replaced. We only allow reuse in vary few situations of any type of flash & drip allows gets damaged in the tear off.

 

[SCBO1]

Spent some time with the building inspector today. He's very interested in the nail head discrepancy and is looking further into it, but couldn't give me an answer straight away

I suspect there are a few inspectors that have caught some illegal items on a job site. I thought I had a big fish on a hook when I could not find a grade stamp on some 2x10 floor joist, false alarm. Looking from 10ft away the eye sometimes will miss the faint little No. 2 D-FIR stamp. It took me about seven joist until I spotted a stamp.

However, I did catch an electrician not installing a GE, he stuck the GC in the ground and stapled it to the utility pole but my boot had just enough room to lift the GC out of the ground. Poor fella wanted to sell fireworks that weekend, he had to wait till Monday.

 

[cda]

You guys are right, thanks for the feedback. I'll remove what are essentially just complaints from last time and expect that their new work will meet code/manufacturer instructions. I will insist on true 3/8" head nails, that the insufficient decking is repaired, and that they somehow remedy all the extra nail holes in the tops of the fascia boards/drip edges from the initial crew's gutter guard mess up (they bent it out of the way and then unsuccessfully tried to nail it flat again).

If you can't tell already, I was astonishly disappointed with the quality of work of the subcontractors they hired, but they will be sending their own crew this time. They did a decent job on many of my neighbors' roofs, so the results should be dramatically better. And I'll talk with the inspector about checking on it in progress.

They've said that they will cover a certain amount of new decking, but if we go over, any idea how much extra per sheet of OSB is normally charged?

Are they going to remove all the shingles off the roof???

 

[strobit]

You are on your way to being an inspector for roofs lol.

Drip edge should almost always be replaced. We only allow reuse in vary few situations of any type of flash & drip allows gets damaged in the tear off.

LOL, unfortunately, it wasn't very hard to spot the defects in this botched roofing job. One more defect I just found is that in addition to rotten decking at the eave, there is a 1" gap between the decking and the drip edge (which is just nailed to the tops of the fascia boards). No wonder why it felt like there was nothing under there. It never should've just been covered up, but if you're trying to get the whole roof torn off and reshingled in one day, you apparently need to cut a lot of corners.

Are they going to remove all the shingles off the roof???

Yes, they will do it all over again. This time with someone from the head office on site and perhaps some visits from the building inspector.

I, and the building inspector, will insist on full 3/8" head nails. The company rep was curious about the head size difference when I showed him the nails and is looking into why the nails they get from their supplier are smaller. I hate to think about how many thousands of roofs have been done lately with nail heads that are too small, which is why I have been trying to find some viable reason/excuse/justification for them being used.

 

[cda]

LOL, unfortunately, it wasn't very hard to spot the defects in this botched roofing job. One more defect I just found is that in addition to rotten decking at the eave, there is a 1" gap between the decking and the drip edge (which is just nailed to the tops of the fascia boards). No wonder why it felt like there was nothing under there. It never should've just been covered up, but if you're trying to get the whole roof torn off and reshingled in one day, you apparently need to cut a lot of corners.



Yes, they will do it all over again. This time with someone from the head office on site and perhaps some visits from the building inspector.

I, and the building inspector, will insist on full 3/8" head nails. The company rep was curious about the head size difference when I showed him the nails and is looking into why the nails they get from their supplier are smaller. I hate to think about how many thousands of roofs have been done lately with nail heads that are too small, which is why I have been trying to find some viable reason/excuse/justification for them being used.

viable reason/excuse/justification for them being used.

Not made in the USA????

Metric??

 

[ADAguy]

Thanks Bill1952. It seems as though a lot of it hinges on the manufacturer instructions.

Mark, the code says 3/8" minimum head size, but the coil roofing nail heads I've seen being used around here (hail storm, a lot of new roofs going on) are smaller. Do these smaller heads pass for 3/8" - sort of like how 1/2" plywood isn't quite 1/2" anymore?

Code is a minimum, manufactures is a warranty issue; do both.

 

[strobit]

The job is done and, from what I can tell, done pretty well the second time around.

They ended up using Bostitch CR4DGAL coil nails. They're still a bit small, with heads varying from .350" to .370", but much better than the generic ABC Supply nails that were originally used. Having looked around at local building supply stores and not finding any coil nails that are actually .375", I'm thinking that these Bostitch nails are about as good as coiled nails come these days.

While I'm much happier with this second new roof, it still bothers me that the commonly available and commonly used nails fall short of minimum code and manufacturer requirements. Why have a minimum spec if it is not going to be, or maybe even can't be, adhered to?

Pic below shows an original (.380"), a Bostitch (.360"), and a generic (.325")