Single Df w/bottle filler vs hi-lo

[ADAguy]

In our downtown highrise the building mangement just changed out an existing hi-lo DF for a single lo with a bottle filler in the cafeteria dining room.

Comments?

 

[steveray]

Did they get a permit?

 

[mark handler]

In our downtown highrise the building mangement just changed out an existing hi-lo DF for a single lo with a bottle filler in the cafeteria dining room.Comments?

are there cups avaliable?

 

[steveray]

are there cups avaliable?

How do you hold a cup with a closed fist?

 

[mark handler]

There are DOJ interp documents for the "old" ADAAG, in existing facilities, allowing "cups"

 

[steveray]

There are DOJ interp documents for the "old" ADAAG, in existing facilities, allowing "cups"

Interesting.....I just have that gut reaction about not making things "less" accessible or safe or whatever....

 

[mark handler]

In existing facilities, ADA looks for reasonable accommodations...unless you remodel or alter the space.

 

[steveray]

How did they satisfy this:

3411.7 Alterations affecting an area containing a primary function.

Where an alteration affects the accessibility to, or contains an area of primary function, the route to the primary function area shall be accessible. The accessible route to the primary function area shall include toilet facilities or drinking fountains serving the area of primary function.

Exceptions:

1. The costs of providing the accessible route are not required to exceed 20 percent of the costs of the alterations affecting the area of primary function.

2. This provision does not apply to alterations limited solely to windows, hardware, operating controls, electrical outlets and signs.

3. This provision does not apply to alterations limited solely to mechanical systems, electrical systems, installation or alteration of fire protection systems and abatement of hazardous materials.

4. This provision does not apply to alterations undertaken for the primary purpose of increasing the accessibility of a facility.

5. This provision does not apply to altered areas limited to Type B dwelling and sleeping units.

 

[mark handler]

Once again apples and oranges

 

[steveray]

Not really Mark....they altered the building or it's facilities, how did they increase the accessibility or are they at 100% already? If the new DF was $1000 Show me $200 in accessible improvements...

1109.5.1 Minimum number.

No fewer than two drinking fountains shall be provided. One drinking fountain shall comply with the requirements for people who use a wheelchair and one drinking fountain shall comply with the requirements for standing persons.

Exceptions:

1. A single drinking fountain that complies with the requirements for people who use a wheelchair and standing persons shall be permitted to be substituted for two separate drinking fountains.

 

[ADAguy]

Aha! Steve and Mark!

Good discussion points:

1. No cups provided

2. As to standing folks, they must have a cup or bottle to fill at the bottle filler but cannot drink without one, therefore exception wouldn't work, no?

3. Work performed voluntarily, obviously without contacting a consultant.

4. Major public agency building at Union Station.

5. These bottle fillers and cuspidors are appearing at school & college gyms.

 

[steveray]

5. These bottle fillers and cuspidors are appearing at school & college gyms.

Great!....As long as they are in excess of the required accessible fixtures under the building code....and not part of a remodel that needs to increase accessibility...

 

[ADAguy]

Steve, my point is that they reduced the number of DF's from 2 to 1, not part of a remodel.

 

[steveray]

Steve, my point is that they reduced the number of DF's from 2 to 1, not part of a remodel.

Violation...IMO....A little more complicted than that in the real world, but they cannot legally under the building code remove a required accessible fixture....

 

[Mech]

Management removed a drinking fountain. Was that fountain used to meet the minimum requirement or was it an extra, installed above and beyond the minimum required? I agree that the newly installed model does not meet the requirements for a low and a high mounted drinking fountain.

 

[ADAguy]

Mech, interesting question.

"If provided" it must comply. If not required (drinking fountains aren't required to be provided by code), must it still comply? I believe so.

I believe we all agree that if it was a voluntarily installed it can be removed but they cannot "voluntarily" install a non-compliant one.

 

[Mech]

"If provided" it must comply. If not required (drinking fountains aren't required to be provided by code), must it still comply? I believe so.I believe we all agree that if it was a voluntarily installed it can be removed but they cannot "voluntarily" install a non-compliant one.

I agree. ...

 

[JPohling]

current CPC requires drinking fountains

 

[steveray]

They are Required by IBC 2902.1 I believe.....

 

[ADAguy]

Interesting, Resturaunt is a place of assembly but CPC 412.1 does not require them only in an auditorium type facility.

 

[steveray]

Interesting, Resturaunt is a place of assembly but CPC 412.1 does not require them only in an auditorium type facility.

There is some kind of exception for places that wait on you and serve water......

410.3 Substitution.

Where restaurants provide drinking water in a container free of charge, drinking fountains shall not be required in those restaurants. In other occupancies, where drinking fountains are required, water coolers or bottled water dispensers shall be permitted to be substituted for not more than 50 percent of the required number of drinking fountains.

 

[Mech]

Is the restaurant exception listed in the ADA? I skimmed through it quick but did not see it.

 

[mark handler]

Is the restaurant exception listed in the ADA? I skimmed through it quick but did not see it.

Not there.

 

[steveray]

Not there.

But is it a required fixture in buildings per ADA? Or if it is provided it just needs to be accessible?