Single Exit from Basement (Commercial - M)

[eyan50495]

We are trying to avoid a redesign of the Kitchen as best as possible. Getting rid of the rated exit passageway would be fine but my CPT would be far beyond 100' for Storage as you do not have a 2nd means of egress until you are standing in front of Stair A.

 

[cda]

https://www.specsandcodes.com/articles/code_corner/The Code Corner No. 29 - Travel Distance.pdf

 

[eyan50495]

https://www.specsandcodes.com/articles/code_corner/The Code Corner No. 29 - Travel Distance.pdf

Someone in our office argued that since it was open, by adding the rated exit passageway, you would effectively cut down the CPT as once you get to that door, you had multiple paths around. However, ultimately, it does lead you to the same exit.

 

[eyan50495]

Actually, if I do remove that Exit Passageway, utilizing Ron's earlier comment about it being an S-1, I can use the full 100' CPET vs. the 75' I was using. That gets me within feet of the door of Stair A. I might be able to make it by pulling a wall here are there...

 

[eyan50495]

Update. Revised the plans to simply rate the Kitchen itself. Removed the exit passageway as it was complicating things. Utilized the 100' travel distance since they are F & S occupancies.

Let's see what the DOB says....

 

[steveray]

We also throw this in:

(Add) 1028.3.1 Remoteness. Where two or more doors leading to exit discharge are required, a
minimum of two such doors shall be placed a distance apart equal to not less than one-third of
the length of the maximum overall diagonal dimension of the building served, measured in a
straight line between doors. Additional doors leading to exit discharge shall be arranged a
reasonable distance apart so that if one becomes blocked, the others will be available.

In case the discharge of the stair is closer than the entrances...

 

[ADAguy]

Good exercise, maybe add a 3rd stair?

 

[eyan50495]

steveray, did you mean Table 1006.2.1? If so, then that is for spaces and not stories.

Eyan50495, according to your drawing, the way you measured the CPET is incorrect--diagonally through a room is not considered "the natural an unobstructed path" (in a mercantile storeroom, I seriously doubt the room will be so open to afford such a direct path).

Once someone enters a protected means of egress, the protection cannot be reduced. Occupants that enter the exit passageway from the open storage must be provided equal protection to either exit if both exits are to be considered for the open storage egress. To reach the second exit, an occupant from the open storage must leave the protection of the exit passageway.

Can the open storage space have a single exit? Yes, per Table 1006.3.2(2); however, as I previously stated, the common path appears to exceed the maximum of 75 feet. If the building will be fully sprinklered throughout, then this distance can be increased to 100 feet per footnote 'b' of Table 1006.3.2(2), which may help out. The kitchen and the smaller rooms will have two means of egress, but you need to make sure that they are separated by 1/3 the overall diagonal of the area they serve (not the entire basement).

Well the Building Dept. got back to me and saw the revised plan (I put it in the last comment). They are insistent that I cannot use the 100' CPET for F / S occ. because the basement is considered the 2nd story. Per table IBC NYS 106.3.2. I have 34 occ. which would be beyond the 29 max occ. and put me back at 75'.

Thoughts on this?

It sounds like he wants me to rate the entire kitchen (separating the S-2 / F-1 occ.) and create a rated corridor between the stairs. Also, I'm assuming a commercial kitchen which serves prepared food on the ground floor above (grab & go / deli style / bakery) is considered F-1 and not F-2?

 

[steveray]

A rated corridor does nothing for travel distance.....? I can see where one would get F1/S2, but I would have no issues with F1/S1 if it helped....

 

[cda]

Well the Building Dept. got back to me and saw the revised plan (I put it in the last comment). They are insistent that I cannot use the 100' CPET for F / S occ. because the basement is considered the 2nd story. Per table IBC NYS 106.3.2. I have 34 occ. which would be beyond the 29 max occ. and put me back at 75'.

Thoughts on this?

It sounds like he wants me to rate the entire kitchen (separating the S-2 / F-1 occ.) and create a rated corridor between the stairs. Also, I'm assuming a commercial kitchen which serves prepared food on the ground floor above (grab & go / deli style / bakery) is considered F-1 and not F-2?

Person, are you in the Briar Patch.

Ask the nice reviewer for the section, that makes this area a 2nd floor??

Or does the reviewer mean 2nd floor below grade?

What is the sq ft of kitchen and storage areas?

 

[cda]

This is an existing building, correct??/

If so, not sure how you are making the existing condition worse.

 

[eyan50495]

This is an existing building, correct??/

If so, not sure how you are making the existing condition worse.

Well we were the Architects for the Building Core/Shell and the Tenants. The Tenants design changed throughout and now we are having issues with this large Kitchen.

The Kitchen is 2600 SF and the remaining open storage is 7500 SF.

He is referring to the definition of 'Story'. In that table, they say 'First Floor OR Basement'. In that case, the 1st Floor is the First Floor and the Basement becomes the 2nd Story............ The OR confuses me. There is another table which speaks about Grade Plane in determining the 1st floor/basement but this reads differently to me.

 

[eyan50495]

To me, the only way we are getting 75' CPET will be to make the kitchen wider and longer vs. how deep it is shown as.

 

[cda]

What is the use of the room in the upper left portion of the kitchen ??

Storeroom?

 

[eyan50495]

What is the use of the room in the upper left portion of the kitchen ??

Storeroom?

Yes. From Top to Bottom (Walk-In Coolers, Prep Areas, Cook Areas). Storage to the upper right and a managers office to the lower right.

 

[RLGA]

Well the Building Dept. got back to me and saw the revised plan (I put it in the last comment). They are insistent that I cannot use the 100' CPET for F / S occ. because the basement is considered the 2nd story. Per table IBC NYS 106.3.2. I have 34 occ. which would be beyond the 29 max occ. and put me back at 75'.

Thoughts on this?

It sounds like he wants me to rate the entire kitchen (separating the S-2 / F-1 occ.) and create a rated corridor between the stairs. Also, I'm assuming a commercial kitchen which serves prepared food on the ground floor above (grab & go / deli style / bakery) is considered F-1 and not F-2?

My thoughts? They have their heads up their you-know-whats. A basement is not a second story...ever. Table 1006.3.2(2) states "Second story above grade plane." The basement is considered within the first row grouping "First story above or below grade plane"--a basement is always below the grade plane.

 

[cda]

Yes. From Top to Bottom (Walk-In Coolers, Prep Areas, Cook Areas). Storage to the upper right and a managers office to the lower right.

ok was trying to see if there were a few feet to carve out a walk thru

With wall across corridor to stair and wall with doors across storeroom corridor

So basically you have a choice to go to thru doors to middle stairs or take a left and go thru the carved out portion to the bottom stairs,,

So there are walls separating the stairs

 

[RLGA]

Well we were the Architects for the Building Core/Shell and the Tenants. The Tenants design changed throughout and now we are having issues with this large Kitchen.

The Kitchen is 2600 SF and the remaining open storage is 7500 SF.

He is referring to the definition of 'Story'. In that table, they say 'First Floor OR Basement'. In that case, the 1st Floor is the First Floor and the Basement becomes the 2nd Story............ The OR confuses me. There is another table which speaks about Grade Plane in determining the 1st floor/basement but this reads differently to me.

If the code used "and" instead of "or," then both conditions would need to exist in order to use that row grouping. For example, what if a building didn't have a first story below grade plane? Could they use it since only one condition of the "and" statement exists? By using "or," you look at each story individually.

 

[cda]

Well we were the Architects for the Building Core/Shell and the Tenants. The Tenants design changed throughout and now we are having issues with this large Kitchen.

The Kitchen is 2600 SF and the remaining open storage is 7500 SF.

He is referring to the definition of 'Story'. In that table, they say 'First Floor OR Basement'. In that case, the 1st Floor is the First Floor and the Basement becomes the 2nd Story............ The OR confuses me. There is another table which speaks about Grade Plane in determining the 1st floor/basement but this reads differently to me.

Ok I put my Virtual Kindergarten Crayon to the math and came up with


storage 15 7500/500

kitchen 13 2600/200

That is straight math

 

[eyan50495]

My thoughts? They have their heads up their you-know-whats. A basement is not a second story...ever. Table 1006.3.2(2) states "Second story above grade plane." The basement is considered within the first row grouping "First story above or below grade plane"--a basement is always below the grade plane.

Yep - not sure how to handle this at this point. I'll try and get more evidence to see... I doubt he'll budge.

 

[steveray]

Did you mean 300 for storage which would put you at 25 OL?Plus 13 for 38 total....?