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Starbucks pickup counters discriminating against disabled?

Once I saw a older disabled person in a chair at four bucks. The young man walked from behind the counter and served the person in the wheel chair. What a concept, one person being nice to another. What's next a law requiring someone to hold a door for an elderly person or a man opening a door for a women or would it be a law not allowing an act of select kindness? I guess it could be discrimination either way, depends on the lawyer.

BTW, I'm filling suit against Disney for letting those disabled people butt in line. Anyone want to join me? I'm being discriminated against.
 
I was Starbucks for my afternoon shot yesterday, and noticed a new sign on the cash register. ISA plus words to the effect of "for those who need assitance, we would be glad to serve you at your seat." I'm in this store often, and pretty sure that sign was not there last week.
 
Darren, I've also been seeing that more lately not only at starbucks. I'm wondering if businesses are doing it in hopes of avoid the law suits since theres been a lot of press lately.
 
I would just stop calling it a service counter. I would not call it any kind of counter. Possibly label it a "safety barrier", or "equipment screen".

Both in the interests of public safety, and sound mitigation.

Problem solved.

Brent.
 
massdriver said:
i would just stop calling it a service counter. I would not call it any kind of counter. Possibly label it a "safety barrier", or "equipment screen". Both in the interests of public safety, and sound mitigation. Problem solved. Brent.
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just stop calling it a service counter does not change its function

if dogs are not allowed do you call your dog a cat....

Once again, you are trying to find a way to discriminate.

Its not a mater of what you call it it is about use and function

CBC 1122B.5 ...where counters have cash registers and are provided for

sales or distribution of goods or services to the public....
 
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mark handler said:
just stop calling it a service counter does not change its functionif dogs are not allowed do you call your dog a cat....

Once again, you are trying to find a way to discriminate.

Its not a mater of what you call it it is about use and function

CBC 1122B.5 ...where counters have cash registers and are provided for

sales or distribution of goods or services to the public....
Click to expand...
Sure it does. You have to think critically Mark.

It has to be available, by definition, by none, or by all. So If I were Star bucks I would simply say it is no longer a service counter. It is a means to shield the customers from the work area and machines used to prepare the coffee, and has nothing to do with the service of product to the consumer. If you look to the right you will see display cases that are taller still. They have the function of hygiene and display, but not service. That's not to say a Starbuck's employee has never handed me a coffeecake over the top because of a crowded store. But don't give up hope because maybe you could sue her or me for discrimination or something.

So yea, I can change it's name and function.

You play your games, we'll play ours.

Brent.
 
MASSDRIVER said:
Sure it does. You have to think critically Mark.It has to be available, by definition, by none, or by all. So If I were Star bucks I would simply say it is no longer a service counter. It is a means to shield the customers from the work area and machines used to prepare the coffee, and has nothing to do with the service of product to the consumer. If you look to the right you will see display cases that are taller still. They have the function of hygiene and display, but not service. That's not to say a Starbuck's employee has never handed me a coffeecake over the top because of a crowded store. But don't give up hope because maybe you could sue her or me for discrimination or something.

So yea, I can change it's name and function.

You play your games, we'll play ours.

Brent.
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First of all I do not sue anyone, nor do I assist those that do. I assist businesses and Govn't Agencies on how NOT to be sued.

Second It is not a game.

Third you must change the function for all or they will be sued.

It is not a game.

You do not know me, nor what I do, nor my background.
 
mark handler said:
First of all I do not sue anyone, nor do I assist those that do. I assist businesses and Govn't Agencies on how NOT to be sued.Good. That makes me happy.

Second It is not a game.

Third you must change the function for all or they will be sued.

It is not a game.

You do not know me, nor what I do, nor my background.
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Oh, it's a game. A serious one that costs people money.

Or should I say MAKES people money?

And background is important. Would you like to share to lend validity to your views? No threat from me, I'm just a not-quite-yet-failed contractor/naildriver from the school of hard knocks, but I have a penchant for learning and do not view ignorance as a virtue, like margaritas, and long walks on the beach.

Brent.
 
MASSDRIVER said:
Oh, it's a game. A serious one that costs people money.Or should I say MAKES people money?

And background is important. Would you like to share to lend validity to your views? No threat from me, I'm just a not-quite-yet-failed contractor/naildriver from the school of hard knocks, but I have a penchant for learning and do not view ignorance as a virtue, like margaritas, and long walks on the beach. Brent.
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You see it as a game, that is why you will always be on the losing end.
 
mark handler said:
The end. .
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By the way, we were good on post #30 until the butthurted derail.

So, to reformat my opinion into a question, what prevents the reclassification of an architectural element to comply with the ADA requirement? Reflect on the display cases. If they were to be called service counters they would not pass muster, but since there is no expectation of that with the fixture there is no complaint. I suspect the whole problem is that small raised wafer above the cabinet. I am going to assume just for argument the cabinet itself is compliant, and could be used to serve customers their products. So in the interests of making the day equally difficult on everybody to spare any discrimination, including handing someone their drink directly around the corner, I simply put a bunch of Starbucks crap on that shelf for display, pass drinks over to the left of the machine, (the new service area) and I should be compliant. Unless you are saying someone else gets to dictate where and what the service area is.

Brent.
 
Brent - you seem to be working very hard to find a way to "get around" compliance. You said in an earlier post that you have a penchant for learning. Have you spent some time studying the intent of the ADA? It's worth your time.

I as well have no tolerance for those who use the ADA as a tool simply for making money. And I understand that our world will never be as easy to navigate and function for those with a disablitly. However - when a feature can be built in a manner that would serve those with a disablity as well as those without (like a service counter at a lower height) it should be done. Ignorance of the requirment is not a valid excuse. Finding a way to get around the requirement is not an honarable solution.

Starbucks is a high-quality operation in many ways. I hope they step up and do the right thing.
 
Darren Emery said:
Brent - you seem to be working very hard to find a way to "get around" compliance. You said in an earlier post that you have a penchant for learning. Have you spent some time studying the intent of the ADA? It's worth your time. I as well have no tolerance for those who use the ADA as a tool simply for making money. And I understand that our world will never be as easy to navigate and function for those with a disablitly. However - when a feature can be built in a manner that would serve those with a disablity as well as those without (like a service counter at a lower height) it should be done. Ignorance of the requirment is not a valid excuse. Finding a way to get around the requirement is not an honarable solution.

Starbucks is a high-quality operation in many ways. I hope they step up and do the right thing.
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I tend to see that a lot when people let their personal beliefs get in the way of performing their job correctly. I also see that with inspectors that want to be everyone's friend and don't have the spine to do their job. In both cases, they need to in a different career as it does nothing but cause discourse within our profession. I always tell my inspectors "You have to stop thinking like a contractor and start thinking like an inspector."
 
jar546 said:
I always tell my inspectors "You have to stop thinking like a contractor and start thinking like an inspector."
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At which point their head evaporates and their hat falls onto their collar.

......I'm kidding.

Let me try a different tack.

There is a group of people that are looking for any marginal thing, in this case a "service counter". Without that counter everything functions normally, product can be passed, and everything can proceed normally and without discrimination whatsoever. So to save Starbucks money and effort, just don't use it as a service counter. It's not unethical or trying to skirt the rules. It just means its there. Benign. Nobody gets to use it so its non discriminatory. Simple as that.

Brent.
 
WOW! You continue to focus your time and efforts on how to circumvent the requirement to provide equal access rather than using that critical thinking to develop a solution. This is precisely why people need to file lawsuits to obtain compliance. Your thinking is severely flawed and promotes the behavior that you detest.
 
= = =

Without that designated "Service Counter", ...that reduced function & perception

of "serving their customers" could effect their bottom line......To my simple mind,

it seems easier, ...more politically acceptable, ...more ADA acceptable, ...more

corporately acceptable to install a compliant "Service Counter", ...a win-win

application, rather than relabeling an area that is intended to serve their

customers in the first place.

& = = &
 
The "tip jar" is alway's positioned on the service counter so everyone can reach it!

No issues with that accessability!

pc1
 
actually the tip jar is typically another one of those items that is cluttering up the countertop at the register along with gift card selections, cd's and other odds n ends that impact the ability to use this area as an accessible counter.
 
The barrier free requirements are written into the code in Canada for a reason. It's a lot easier if I can sit down with someone building and explain and go through the barrier free requirements. They don't feel like they are getting the railroad treatment and they are usually more than happy to do something to expand their potential clientèle. Currently in my province approximately 10% of people have some sort of disability. That's a lot of people to deny service to before you even open your doors.

The basis behind these laws is so people can be treated equally. I have disabled family members who have a hard enough time getting around as it is. The last thing we should be doing is putting up barriers for them to try to navigate. As for stepping out around the counter to serve a client, I see that as the employee making the best of a bad situation (and good on them). Many individuals who are disabled become self-conscious when they have to be treated differently from those of us who have been very lucky.

Every business I have helped by going over the barrier free requirements have commented that they see people who are disabled in their stores and restaurants often and receive positive comments from them and family members about how nice it is to be able to navigate and be treated like a normal person. The first day I heard a business comment on that it was the happiest and saddest I have been a long time. I was happy because I had made such a difference in those peoples lives. It was the saddest because I realized how far we have left to go.
 
However, Starbucks President Cliff Burrows said in a video that the company already has taken steps to improve accessibility.Specifically, he said the company has introduced a “lower-height hand-off plane” across the globe.

Dubey, in a statement Tuesday, said he was “surprised” to learn that Starbucks has introduced the lower hand-off counters.
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Our Starbucks was built in 2006 and I went in there today and the lower hand off counter is still there and usable.
 
Starbucks Can't Wipe Out ADA Suit Over High Counters

By Kat Greene

Law360, Los Angeles (August 27, 2013, 6:36 PM ET) -- Starbucks Corp. on Monday lost all but a portion of a motion to dismiss a putative class action in California federal court accusing the coffee behemoth of violating the Americans With Disabilities Act with counters in its stores that are too high for a person in a wheelchair to reach.

U.S. District Judge Dean D. Pregerson is allowing the class, led by four quadriplegics, to pursue its claims against Starbucks stores built before 2005, when the company changed its policy about the counter design,

Starbucks Can't Wipe Out ADA Suit Over High Counters - Law360
 
mark handler said:
U.S. District Judge Dean D. Pregerson is allowing the class, led by four quadrapegics
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So. I had think awhile to make sure I wanted to ask this, cause I know nobody wants our disabled questioned in any way.

But ima gonna do it.

Are not quadrapelegics arms and legs paralized? How do they reach a counter of any size? How do they reach anything? What difference could counter height make to them? I totally would understand this for someone who lost the use of their legs, but a quad? I think we are back to an employee handing... I guess... Or placing a drink into holder, with a straw.

Befuddling.

Awaiting educational refinement.

Brent.
 
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