Stop plan review at what point

[jar546]

I took the advice of one of the members here and stopped the plan review after 7 deficiencies, one which was an occupancy load calculation that was incorrect and will make the architect provide separate bathroom facilities instead of just 1. It is a proposed chinese restaurant and they were trying to show 11 seats and 4 workers in the kitchen. Actual occupancy should be closer to 39 with 5 in the kitchen and 34 in the dining area. The total square footage is over 2,300 for the entire place.

This may not be the most politically correct but I truly see no point in continuing plan review when they have to make major changes. I told them in the letter that I stopped because of that problem and hopefully they will get the picture to check their work better.

Thoughts?

 

Re: Stop plan review at what point

Jeff,

There have been many times I felt the same way but in the long run you have made it a longer run. Surely there were deficiencies beyond 7 and there is little likelihood that they will catch them on their own on the next attempt. You are going to hear "Why didn't you tell us that the first time". How will you answer?

 

[pyrguy]

Re: Stop plan review at what point

Jeff

I don't remember ever stopping a review for too many issues.

I have however called the DP and had a conversation about an issue that would cause the design to become "DRT' because of a fatal flaw such excess travel distance in an office building. I then moved in to other plans for a day or so while I waited for a call and resolution from the DP's involved.

If I did not get a call I finished the review as noncompliant due to (the issue) per (code section) on Sheet XXX'.

I always had the FM, if needed, and the BO on board before the letter went out.

 

[north star]

Re: Stop plan review at what point

Jeff,

I too have never stopped an entire plan review because of xxx number of deficiencies.

I typically complete the whole process and send a comment letter to the DP. When

they send in the REVISED plans for re-review, I look at the REVISED plans and my

comments to see if everything was addressed, if not, I send them another comment

letter outlining my intial comments and my ' requested ' REVISIONS. We go back

and forth until a resolution is reached.

This is what works here. I'm not always satisfied with the outcome, but it IS what

works here. It keeps the elected officials satisfied with their perceived

[ delusional ] "little kingdoms" still intact and me employed. Your experience

and situation may be different.

 

[rktect 1]

Re: Stop plan review at what point

Jeff,There have been many times I felt the same way but in the long run you have made it a longer run. Surely there were deficiencies beyond 7 and there is little likelihood that they will catch them on their own on the next attempt. You are going to hear "Why didn't you tell us that the first time". How will you answer?

Answer:Are you the Design Professional of Record or aren't you?

 

[rktect 1]

Re: Stop plan review at what point

I am in the process of stopping a review. Well, actually I would have stopped it had I caught the error sooner. The submittal is calling it an A-3 when in fact they are an E. Changes far too much for us to have to go through. The comment or call will be that the design needs to reflect an E use. If they designed it as an E I could tell them all the code violations but the changes that need to be made will drastically alter this space.

 

[jim baird]

Re: Stop plan review at what point

I agree Jeff that you can stop the review and kick it back whenever you want to. As rkt points out, the submitter is the decider of what to propose and whether his work is to code. He can't depend on your first review to tell him what to do.

Just as in field inspection, too many items might kill the visit, and the hands-on people are not to rely on whatever you say as defining what they are supposed to do.

The attitude of "I did everything you asked me to do", dodges the idea of responsibility.

 

[SCBO1]

Re: Stop plan review at what point

I agree with north star's way of tackling this rascal, but rktect 1 has a very good point, why spend so much of your time pointing out the issues if the use classification is incorrect, so many things change as the use changes.

 

[jar546]

Re: Stop plan review at what point

I have had issues in the past where there were 37 deficiencies for the plan review which caused some problems with overwhelming the designer and created some political fallout. In addition, I had another situation where they threatened the municipal governing body that they were going to scrap the project if they have to go through all of these "hoops". Of course that was the developer talking, not the architect.

When you get past a certain point with deficiencies, it really makes it hard to continue since so many other areas are affected by missing or incorrect information.

I received a favorable email this morning from both the BCO and the architect on this situation after they received my response.

 

[TJacobs]

Re: Stop plan review at what point

When I get a project which is clearly going to generate a lot of comments I try to get a meeting with the DP and go over them in person. I actually have not had that many. They don't get a formal first review letter, but a copy of my notes. This way, I tell them that the first review will be when the revisions are submitted and I get something I can review.

 

[FM William Burns]

Re: Stop plan review at what point

The reviewer makes the choice and has a comfort level with how to reject or how many pages of corrections in their review correspondence are acceptable. Just had one yesterday, tried to be a nice guy (yea I know) and work with the designer?

The owner is trying to make up their mind on hazardous material storage and racking arrangements on a previously discovered existing building deficiency so a system design submittal was done and there are too many variables (with lacking detail) that could affect design coverages so we requested a revision after a call to the owner to explain why they need to provide the DP with all information and to give them a head’s up. We realize the costs the facility will shell out on an entire system renovation of 500,000 s.f. so we are willing to babysit them a bit. It will delay the process but in the long run it will save us more time with not trying to keep up with policing back and forth changes and multiple reviews. They are the ones that need to make up their minds.

 

[jpranch]

Re: Stop plan review at what point

What about repeated submittals? You know the kind. It's when you have the 37 violations and the 2nd submittal has not addressed all the violations and has created new ones! That is where your plan review fee schedule come into play. We started a graduated fee structure for commercial peojects last summer. It is modest to say the least but here it is: 1st review $100, 2nd review $200, 3rd review $1,300. There is no 4th review done by us. If the dp needs a 4th it is sent out fro 3rd party review at their expence. In other words, 3 strikes and your out bucks!

 

[globe trekker]

Re: Stop plan review at what point

jp,

Your policy of "graduated fees" on the plan reviews makes good sense, ...I like it!

Unfortunately, a lot of jurisdictions out here do not have the luxury of requiring

more fees. For me, too much favoritism, back-slapping and "back room"

deals are the norm here. Apparently this AHJ does not need anymore money! :evil:

And Lord help us if we even think about a pay raise...

 

[RJJ]

Re: Stop plan review at what point

Can't do much about the back door deals. My position has always been hit the wallet. They sit on it and think from it.

I am sure everyone has their own style of how to handle plan reviews. For me if the plan is less then 10 pages I place them in one level. This holds true for Plumbing,Mechanical etc as far as groups. I have no magic number, but once I get passed 10 to 12 correction items per section, I reject the plan. It seems that design; has become design by review. Not poking at DP, but it appears that a great number don't sit down with the codes and design a project. There seems to be no concept of ok! here is the project and what adjustments do I need to make to have it comply. Instead they submit plans and wait for the comments from the plan reviewer. Then in the field as soon as you point something out that was missed in plan review, they respond that wasn't on the plan so I don't have to do it. Sorry I say! Maybe I missed it on the plan, but here in the field I get a second look.

 

[vegas paul]

Re: Stop plan review at what point

Here's what I get a lot of around here...

Registered Architect has a handful of interns (graduated from college with Architecture degree, but need a couple of years internship working under a Reg. DP) working for him. Basically, the interns do the design, while the DP sits by the pool drinking Pina Coladas... he signs/stamps the drawings without much or any review, and sends them to the city for them to "Review in the Quality" as RJJ mentions.

When the plans and long letter come back, THEN the DP looks at them and finishes his/her design.

This seems to be the habit here, based on my observations.

 

[cboboggs]

Re: Stop plan review at what point

I don't stop after XX deficiencies.

I have one DP who likes to provide his client with "options". When he gets called on the fact that even his "options" are incomplete or not in compliance with the code, he claims he has to be able to provide his clients leeway on how to do the project. We go throught this every time. Then he wonders why his projects'average review time is two to three weeks.

 

[FM William Burns]

Re: Stop plan review at what point

I feel much better after reading Rjj, VP and Cboboggs replies. Nice to see the grass isn't greener :lol:

JP: Agree very nice arrangement there but wouldn't fly in our area either

 

[jpranch]

Re: Stop plan review at what point

Ladies & Gents, The fee schedule here is a tight rope just as rjj eluded to. AND this is not a thread to beat the heck out of design professionals. The dp's (small letters) we are all talking about are in the minority and the majority that are doing very good work (doing their due diligence) pays out through the nose for the dog s*** plans the minority sends us. This is a sad but true reality.

Been there done that and have a tee shirt with dog crap on it.

 

[Mule]

Re: Stop plan review at what point

I review the plans all the way through no matter how many corrections need to be made. I have had as many as thirty to forty "notes" on some plans. A lot of the notes are minor but need to be addressed.

I make my notes on a sheet of paper, circle the area I have made a note of on the plans. Specify which sheet and what section of the code I am refering too. I then transfer my notes into Word and label the comments one through whatever. Below each comment I have an area where the dp can comment back titles "Response" on what he did to correct the plans. Sometimes I have made a mistake, maybe missing an exception and the dp will make a comment that per Section so and so exception 3 allows blah blah. This way I can see in a glance without trying to figure out how the corrections were made and take a lot less time to verify on the plans the second time around.

The way I feel about it is that a plan review should be a complete review. We are expected to provide a service to the public and plan review is just part of that process. There have been several times I have met with the dp on the requirements and went over the plans prior to the official submittal of the plans. That makes it easier on everybody to sit down and look over questionable areas. The dp will ask me my interpretation and we will discuss alternatives or the dp may open my eyes to another way of interpretation! You know one of those Hmmmmmmm, Well I'll be dang!

 

[brudgers]

Re: Stop plan review at what point

Just out of curiosity, what's the legal justification for stopping a plan review?

 

[rktect 1]

Re: Stop plan review at what point

Just out of curiosity, what's the legal justification for stopping a plan review?

Do you mean at what point can we stop doing a review? Between what min. and max. Lets say a blank piece of paper that is submitted for a review as an A-3 restaurant versus a full 50 page set of complete drawings?

I suppose IBC section 106.1 would be my basis as well as 106.3.

Sufficient clarity. Maybe a bit general or vague but I'd think it works.

 

[brudgers]

Re: Stop plan review at what point

But we're not talking about a blank piece of paper.

What's the legal justification for stopping a review of a set of plans after X code violations?

Never mind how do you account for the possibility that your interpretation may be in error since you did not reivew the entire set?

 

[pyrguy]

Re: Stop plan review at what point

I do not know if there is a legal justification.

But you can defend the fact that the design is flawed to the point that it does not meet even the most basic code requirements. It therefor cannot be made to be code compliant as designed and requires a major redesign of the basic plan elements to comply with code.

 

[rktect 1]

Re: Stop plan review at what point

So okay, it isn't a blank piece of paper. Maybe it has 4 exterior walls and a door. Maybe it even shows a counter, a hot dog warmer a seat and table. At what point do we say, stop? I think when the submittal shows the person who did the work is either over his head and doesn't know what he/she is doing or just didn't care to put in sufficient detail thus relying on a review in order to perform his design.

Section 106.1.1 is my answer. Is it legal to stop a review? I'd think it is enough for my review comment to be one comment long. Please resubmit at a later date when your project/plans can show clearly that it conforms to this code, etc. so on and so forth. Probably depends on the situation though and how big the changes would become based on the code violations.