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Stop plan review at what point

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Re: Stop plan review at what point

rktect 1 said:
So okay, it isn't a blank piece of paper. Maybe it has 4 exterior walls and a door. Maybe it even shows a counter, a hot dog warmer a seat and table. At what point do we say, stop? I think when the submittal shows the person who did the work is either over his head and doesn't know what he/she is doing or just didn't care to put in sufficient detail thus relying on a review in order to perform his design. Section 106.1.1 is my answer. Is it legal to stop a review? I'd think it is enough for my review comment to be one comment long. Please resubmit at a later date when your project/plans can show clearly that it conforms to this code, etc. so on and so forth. Probably depends on the situation though and how big the changes would become based on the code violations.
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Incomplete plans are not the same as incorrect plans.

And incorrect plans were the jist of the OP.
 
Re: Stop plan review at what point

pyrguy said:
I do not know if there is a legal justification.
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How can you act in an official capacity without knowing if it's even legal?
 
Re: Stop plan review at what point

brudgers said:
rktect 1 said:
So okay, it isn't a blank piece of paper. Maybe it has 4 exterior walls and a door. Maybe it even shows a counter, a hot dog warmer a seat and table. At what point do we say, stop? I think when the submittal shows the person who did the work is either over his head and doesn't know what he/she is doing or just didn't care to put in sufficient detail thus relying on a review in order to perform his design. Section 106.1.1 is my answer. Is it legal to stop a review? I'd think it is enough for my review comment to be one comment long. Please resubmit at a later date when your project/plans can show clearly that it conforms to this code, etc. so on and so forth. Probably depends on the situation though and how big the changes would become based on the code violations.
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Incomplete plans are not the same as incorrect plans.

And incorrect plans were the jist of the OP.

Maybe not. But enough "incorrect" information on plans can make for incomplete plans. Either way, at some point you have to say, stop.
 
Re: Stop plan review at what point

In my opinion if the plans are incomplete to a point that you cannot review other parts of the plans, then there must be a note that the plans are insufficient for any further revies for that part of the plans but I would continue on with the rest of the review.

If the plans do not have enough information to determine exits or path of egress or whatever, that shouldn't stop you from reviewing mechanical and plumbing.
 
Re: Stop plan review at what point

Where is the legal requirement to review plans?
 
Re: Stop plan review at what point

" . . . or cause to be examined . . . "

Have them send their plans out.
 
Re: Stop plan review at what point

Brudgers sez:

Incomplete plans are not the same as incorrect plans.And incorrect plans were the jist of the OP.Design build is an example of incomplete plans not incorrect plans!
 
Re: Stop plan review at what point

I give a list of required items I need on the plans with the permit application. If they leave off some items I need I send them back the list with the missing items checked off. This saves a lot of my time. About half the plans I get have something basic missing like building type or use even with the required list. What I don't understand is when the Architect screws up they charge their customer if they have to revise the plans because they didn't pass the plan review.
 
Re: Stop plan review at what point

That's the part that really razzes my azz! They don't do what they're paid for, we do. They get to double bill their poor schnook of a client and we get to look at the same plans all over again but heaven forbid there's a second review fee! :x :x :x

Sorry, raw nerve...

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Re: Stop plan review at what point

I only review fire protection plans from an insurance point of view and I stop if the following is wrong:

1. The sprinkler design is not correct, plans call the commodity a class 1 we have a Group A Plastic. Or plans indicate pallet storage and we have rack storage.

2. Fire pump is the wrong size

3. The in-rack sprinklers are not as per NFPA.

4. ESFR obstructions

I fail about 50% of the plans I receive on the above things in particular #1 and #4 above. And yes they all have a PE stamp on the plans. I have had plans submitted 2-3 times before I will sign off.
 
Re: Stop plan review at what point

John Drobysh said:
That's the part that really razzes my azz! They don't do what they're paid for, we do. They get to double bill their poor schnook of a client and we get to look at the same plans all over again but heaven forbid there's a second review fee! :x :x :x Sorry, raw nerve...
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Spoken like a person who doesn't have to make their own paychecks.

One without the sense and decency to avoid painting with a broad brush.

And who can turn themselves into a victim.

Some nerve.
 
Re: Stop plan review at what point

brudgers said:
Spoken like a person who doesn't have to make their own paychecks.

One without the sense and decency to avoid painting with a broad brush.

And who can turn themselves into a victim.

Some nerve.
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Yes, it is a broad statement and probably not reflective of all situations and design professionals. I do have two questions for you:

Do you charge a flat fee for a set of prints or do you charge by the hour?

If you have deficiencies on your plan review and have to correct them, do you charge your customer?
 
Re: Stop plan review at what point

Question 1: Yes.

Question 2: Depends on the contract.

Generally, I prefer flat fee.

Counting hours is like having a job.
 
Re: Stop plan review at what point

I think the issue that he and it looks like I am having is when a DP gets paid to correct their own mistakes. You are therefore creating more work for yourself at the expense of the customer. Since this additional work is the fault of the DP, I see an ethical issue here. The worse the DP, the more you get paid. No incentive to do it right the first time. Let the plan reviewer do all of your work and create a punchlist that you should have spent time reviewing. Not fair to the customer.

If you are flat-rate then that is your problem, you are screwing yourself unless you are relying on the plan reviewer to find everything for you. At least in this case, the customer is not paying for your mistakes.

Sort of like an electrician failing an inspection then making the customer pay for the reinspection fee and time to fix the deficiency.
 
Re: Stop plan review at what point

jar546 said:
I think the issue that he and it looks like I am having is when a DP gets paid to correct their own mistakes. You are therefore creating more work for yourself at the expense of the customer. Since this additional work is the fault of the DP, I see an ethical issue here. The worse the DP, the more you get paid. No incentive to do it right the first time. Let the plan reviewer do all of your work and create a punchlist that you should have spent time reviewing. Not fair to the customer.If you are flat-rate then that is your problem, you are screwing yourself unless you are relying on the plan reviewer to find everything for you. At least in this case, the customer is not paying for your mistakes.

Sort of like an electrician failing an inspection then making the customer pay for the reinspection fee and time to fix the deficiency.
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First off, the design professional's payment is irrelevant to the reviewer's job.

Second, many plan reviewers have "issues" unrelated to the code or the plans...as this and many other threads illustrate.

If one form of compensation or another colors your view of the world, that's a real issue.

Heck we just had an inspector get congratulated for making up things to enforce on the jobsite...like safety and failure to say "thank you."

No amount of due diligence can overcome some officials' personality disorders.

If I make a mistake on my plans, of course it's my fault.

However, in my experience it is more common for the person trying to perform a code analysis in a couple of hours to misunderstand the code than I am after many weeks of putting together a building design.

I typically win my cases on real projects.

Particularly when the reviewer's policy is "because I said so."

One only needs to look at the recent thread on the "dead end corridor" to realize how "well" many building officials understand the code.

If I'm charging hourly, then of course it's billable time to make revisions to the plans...I'd have spent the time one way or the other.

If I'm working for a stipulated sum, then revisions required due to changes in the code are billable under standard contracts. It's a change in the initial conditions under which the agreement was reached.

But regardless, I won't change the plans to something that violates code even when the building department says I can.

And I won't do something that's not required just because a building official doesn't understand the code, has a pet peeve, or an issue with how I'm being paid.

Those behind the counter don't have the luxury of saying, "I'm not sure what the code requires, It'll be another three weeks before I complete my review."

I don't have the luxury of no liability.
 
Re: Stop plan review at what point

"If I'm working for a stipulated sum, then revisions required due to changes in the code are billable under standard contracts. It's a change in the initial conditions under which the agreement was reached."

Sounds like double-billing for his own mistakes is his policy...
 
Re: Stop plan review at what point

In PA we have 30 days to respond to the intiall submission. I have taken close to that to get it right.

What you charge is your business. It is my opinion that when you charge your client to correct legitimate mistakes is unethical.

So throw out the part about the plan review making up their own rules, this is not part of the converstation. It all comes down to an ethical issue.

Simply put, you apparently feel it is appropriate to charge for fixing your mistakes. Must be nice. With that attitude you could make a lot of money.

The original posting by me for this thread was about stopping a plan review when it is so far off the mark and so many items are missing, it is simply not worth continuing. I just put a number to it to get a feel from others. I am not your plan checker to give you more billable hours.
 
brudger's wrote:

If I'm charging hourly, then of course it's billable time to make revisions to the plans...I'd have spent the time one way or the other.
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the owner pays for your time even when your making mistakes and you justify this how? I send the owner and the DP a copy of the plan review comments, seems to keep things in perspective.
 
Re: Stop plan review at what point

I have a similar beef with the Designer v. Revisions but that aspect is beyond my scope of control so when it comes into play I make sure that the owner gets a emailed copy of my review so they can argue that aspect with the designer under contract. It’s their issue not mine. I have a similar situation as InsEng does.

I mainly focus my review on the fire protection stuff in a building project (if applicable) and the last one I had the owner did not provide the designer the area for rack storage or area and segregation means for the L2-3 aerosols. These un-disclosed issues are necessary for me to do a thorough review and can affect some of the design scheme and supply availability for the riser(s) supplying the areas. So when I kicked them back everyone knew why and let the designer and owner fight it out. I’ll get back to it when they make up their minds.

Like Brudgers somewhat alludes to.......... I can only serve my customers to the best of my ability including the designer if the plans have the necessary detail needed for me to do a complete review.
 
Re: Stop plan review at what point

John Drobysh said:
"If I'm working for a stipulated sum, then revisions required due to changes in the code are billable under standard contracts. It's a change in the initial conditions under which the agreement was reached."Sounds like double-billing for his own mistakes is his policy...
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Looks like you have trouble understanding what you read.
 
Re:

kilitact said:
brudger's wrote:
If I'm charging hourly, then of course it's billable time to make revisions to the plans...I'd have spent the time one way or the other.
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the owner pays for your time even when your making mistakes and you justify this how? I send the owner and the DP a copy of the plan review comments, seems to keep things in perspective.

Generally, I try to hold a preliminary meeting before plan review and I account for it in a flat fee proposal.

But, an hourly contract is an hourly contract.

If it takes ten hours to get it right it takes ten hours.

Regardless of if all 10 are performed at once.

Typically for me, what takes my time during plan review is getting plan reviewers to admit they're wrong.

I've found that inviting the municipal attorney into the conversation early on often bypasses various agendas (such as my method of compensation) and expedites their seeing the light.
 
Re: Stop plan review at what point

brudger's wrote:

I've found that inviting the municipal attorney into the conversation early on often bypasses various agendas (such as my method of compensation) and expedites their seeing the light.
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Thats a great idea, it would help to keep everyone honest, to many times the DP blames the city for a review that brings up all the code items they miss. The only agenda that would be on the table is code compilance, if you can get it correct, than its off my desk. your compensation or lack therof is not my concern, just try to get it right. ;)
 
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