Stop the madness

[ICE]

To me, on the premises, would indicate that the contractor is on the property. Why not just leave a single screw in the panel? That secures the panel, but reduces the time it takes to open it for the inspector. I can understand how some inspectors might be impatient, but a single screw does not take long to remove.

On the premises means that the equipment can be open with the workers anywhere on the premises other than with the open equipment. Or in our case, in a vehicle within sight of the premises.

There is usually just one screw to remove. They usually have a screwdriver bit in a drill motor. By the time you can say drill motor, the screw is removed.

 

[tmurray]

Yeah, the whole, they're on the premises, but not on the actual property thing doesn't fly with me either.

prem·is·es
ˈpreməsəz/
noun

1. a house or building, together with its land and outbuildings, occupied by a business or considered in an official context.
   "business premises"
   synonyms: building(s), property, site, office
   "he was asked to leave the premises"

 

[steveray]

Do they have the proper arc flash gear on when they open the panel? Will OSHA pursue that?

 

[conarb]

I have been battling the practice of leaving exposed live parts....to no avail. Last week I lost the war against this ignorance. An official policy directive has arrived that condones the practice. A service panel or any other equipment with the dead-front removed is deemed to not be a hazard as long as the contractor's representative is "on the premises".

I have never been a party to the discussion. One of the parameters to be worked out involved the definition of "on the premises". Sitting in a vehicle on the street has been accepted as "on the premises".....but how far down the street seems to matter. That will be a judgement call by the inspector.

Somehow, this is not a hazard as long as the workman is sleeping within three addressees of the address where I found it.



There's nothing to worry about here as long as the contractor can hear the screaming.





This, well this is altogether different. When this happens the inspectors are to contact a supervisor for further instruction.



The permit copy is tucked behind the service entrance conductors, awaiting my signature.






The consensus is that it is not the AHJ's problem to address....it is the contractor's problem and building departments do not police the industry. I have heard it said that the contractor's have insurance.....which of course makes all the difference.

No other authority has an interest in stopping this practice. That includes the Fire Dept., the Contractors License Board, and CalOSHA.

Being just an inspector, and fallible, I might be tilting at windmills.......or.......It happens all over Southern California. One dead child from now, the policy will change.

Tiger:

What code section do you cite? It is none of your business, better that you enforce federal immigration laws, that way you would rid yourself of incompetent electricians. California is a Sanctuiary State, which violates Federal law, I heard yesterday that the mayor of Los Alamitos is not going to enforce California's law.

ith about 12,000 residents spread across a few miles of suburban Southern California, Los Alamitos is better known for its good schools and small-town charms than political activism.

But the city now finds itself at the center of a rebellion against California’s “sanctuary” policies, which aim to protect immigrants here illegally as President Trump vows to ramp up deportations.

Los Alamitos leaders on Monday approved an ordinance that exempts their Orange County municipality from Senate Bill 54, a law that took effect Jan. 1 and restricts local law enforcement's cooperation with federal immigration authorities. It marks a rare effort by a city to challenge the sanctuary movement, which has wide support among elected officials in left-leaning California.
ith about 12,000 residents spread across a few miles of suburban Southern California, Los Alamitos is better known for its good schools and small-town charms than political activism.

But the city now finds itself at the center of a rebellion against California’s “sanctuary” policies, which aim to protect immigrants here illegally as President Trump vows to ramp up deportations.

Los Alamitos leaders on Monday approved an ordinance that exempts their Orange County municipality from Senate Bill 54, a law that took effect Jan. 1 and restricts local law enforcement's cooperation with federal immigration authorities. It marks a rare effort by a city to challenge the sanctuary movement, which has wide support among elected officials in left-leaning California.¹

We are no-longer a nation of laws, who cares if something minor like electical panels are left open.


¹ http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/california/la-me-sanctuary-state-flght-20180319-story.html

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Odd, in this area the immigrants do a better job than the locals. Maybe because they don't want to be noticed?

 

[conarb]

Odd, in this area the immigrants do a better job than the locals. Maybe because they don't want to be noticed?

It's still none of the inspector's business and just another item to increase the cost of construction, in California's proposals for new laws to make affordable construction more affordable I read the other day that codes, zoning and building, increased the costs of construction by 30%, adding zoning in this area increases the costs one Hell of a lot more than that. There are proposals in Sacramento to force AHJs to eliminate zoning codes to allow more affordable housing, maybe they should eliminate building codes as well?

 

[ICE]

It is everybody's business. Any right thinking individual from any walk of life should recognize the danger and speak up. I am surprised that the lawyer in you misses the point of it all.

 

[tmurray]

Odd, in this area the immigrants do a better job than the locals. Maybe because they don't want to be noticed?

I've read some studies that indicate that crime and illegal drug usage is lower in these neighborhoods as well. They hypothesized it was for the same reason.

 

[tmurray]

It is everybody's business. Any right thinking individual from any walk of life should recognize the danger and speak up. I am surprised that the lawyer in you misses the point of it all.

It would be negligent of you to notice a potentially dangerous situation and do nothing to mitigate the danger.

 

[mark handler]

Not our concern, He's Hispanic and maybe a dreamer...
BUT, Not our concern, government overreach to require permits. Oh wait, he maybe a citizen, should we care then?

While playing ball, the boy touched a fence coursing with electricity. He died days later
http://www.fresnobee.com/news/local/article176780736.html
A 12-year-old Fresno boy has died of electrocution in a case police say is a tragic accident.
Adrian Antunez Perez died 2:17 p.m. Monday at Community Regional Medical Center, according a family friend.
His organs are being donated.
Police were called to Villa Margaritas apartments at 1235 N. Recreation Ave., near Olive and Chestnut avenues, just after 6 p.m. Thursday for a report of a boy stuck in an electrified fence, Lt. Stephen Viveros said. Police and paramedics found him unconscious between a cinder-block wall and a chain-link fence.
Adrian and other children were throwing a football when it fell between the wall and fence, which are one to two feet apart. Adrian had gone to retrieve it, Viveros said.
Adrian jumped down between the two fences to get the ball when a jolt of electricity caused him to fall, Viveros said. He got up, fell again and became unconscious.
When police first tried to grab the boy, they received an electric shock, he said. They got him out and called PG&E to turn off power.
An investigation showed a bare wire had come into contact with a metal conduit that touched the fence. Viveros said the wire and conduit had recently been put there to power video surveillance cameras. “It’s just a tragic accident,” he said.
However, city officials said the wiring was improperly done.
City spokesman Mark Standriff said “there was illegal wiring to power some video surveillance cameras.” The wiring was installed without a permit or inspection, Standriff said. The city’s code enforcement division Monday issued a citation to the property manager, who must remove the wiring by Friday or face a fine.
The property is owned by JMY Properties LLC in Rolling Hills. Attempts to reach the company for comment were unsuccessful.
Energetic, smart
Adrian was a student at Scandinavian Middle School. Fresno Unified School District has psychologists and counselors available at Scandinavian and Ewing Elementary School, where Adrian’s siblings and other friends attend.
“We've been working close with the family and the school to provide information to parents and staff and to provide substitutes to teachers who are affected,” district spokeswoman Jessica Peres Baird said.
“He was very well loved,” Baird said. “A lot of people know his family.”
Karen Jones, a former teacher of Adrian’s mother Victoria, said as a small child Adrian was a happy, energetic, mischievious and smart child. She said a friend of Adrian’s told her, “Adrian just makes everything so much more fun.”
Diana Benate, 18, lives in the apartment building, and said Adrian was like a member of the family.
“He was such an active boy,” she said. “It’s hard for me to believe.”
She said she ran to Adrian when she heard he was in trouble behind the two fences.
“We were screaming ‘Adrian!’ ” she said. “He wouldn’t even answer us anymore.”
A candlelight vigil was planned for 7 Tuesday night in front Villa Margaritas Apartments, 1235 N. Recreation Ave.
Lewis Griswold: 559-441-6104, @fb_LewGriswold

 

[ICE]

It would be negligent of you to notice a potentially dangerous situation and do nothing to mitigate the danger.

The building dept. that I work for agrees with Conarb. My hands are tied. Or so they think.

 

[conarb]

The building dept. that I work for agrees with Conarb. My hands are tied. Or so they think.

I don't know what to say, I guess the Tiger Code rules, if your own employer can't control you I guess nobody can. BTW, those appear to be solar panel installations, I've always encouraged you to give them Hell.

 

[ICE]

Four times in as many days. Wide open and the worker was in a vehicle on the street. The service is dangerous beyond measure. The service would have to be on fire to be any more dangerous. I am one of a thousand inspectors here in so. ca. It's a given that people have been shocked but I haven't heard of a fatality. Dumb luck I suppose.

The state of the electrical trade here is nothing to be proud about. When I tell the person that did this how sad I am and I see the wonderment in their expression.....well then, Shirley the horse is dead and I don't have time for another beating.









Many inspectors share the blame. I am sorry about that but it's true. AHJ's sanction this behavior. I ask myself how that can be... then remember that Disney World has alligators in their wading pool.

 

[conarb]

Tiger:

You've gone crazy on this issue, I'm going strictly from memory because I've never paid that much attention, but all panels are left wide open during construction, for final they button everything up and the inspectors all carry screw drivers and open them up and then put the screws back in, the reason I get involved is that I have one Hell of a time getting the electricians to neatly label the circuits, another reason I look is hardwood floor guys go to the sub-panels and hot-wire their 220 floor sanders, in large homes that can be several subpanels. Another reason I get involved is on new homes we jump our power-pole service to the house main panel to energize the entire house before final so they can "ring-out" the house, in some cases I've even let the owners move in before final while jumped from my power pole, if the inspector says anything I point out that he still has control over the gas service, not long ago one pointed out that since I was on propane he had no control, I pointed out that on remodels people live in them all the time with both gas and electric hooked up.

Funny, you'll walk on roofs but won't unscrew a panel, most of our inspectors aren't allowed on a roof but carry screw drivers to open and close panels, just like they open and close many light fixtures to check UL labels. You must have a screw driver to open up fixtures don't you? Or do you make the contractor open and close light frixtures too?

 

[tmurray]

Our laws would prohibit us from uncovering work for an inspection. We would have to order it uncovered by the contractor/owner. I'm wondering if you have similar laws.

 

[ICE]

Conarb, you missed the point. So much time in rarefied air has skewed your view of reality.

I have removed a few thousand dead-fronts. My AHJ pretty much insists that inspectors not remove dead-fronts. So perhaps you are right and I am out of control. However, that has nothing to do with the issue at hand. What you have done in the past and advocate for today is wrong.

It is silly to have an argument with anyone about such a stupid practice. I am done with it.....until the inevitable happens.

 

[SCBO1]

My parents gave me a "toaster" and an "electric radio" to play with as bath toys! Rodney Dangerfield

 

[tmurray]

My parents gave me a "toaster" and an "electric radio" to play with as bath toys! Rodney Dangerfield

Were they bath toys?

 

[SCBO1]

Why, yes the were!

 

[conarb]

Our laws would prohibit us from uncovering work for an inspection. We would have to order it uncovered by the contractor/owner. I'm wondering if you have similar laws.

T Murray:

How do you check for UL lables in fixtures? Do you walk on roofs? How about smokes 30' in the air, do you go up long ladders to check them?

 

[tmurray]

I don't inspect electrical, but the electrical inspector checks most at rough in, and the rest there is the documentation on site.

Walking on a roof or testing a smoke alarm doesn't require me to remove any of the construction...

 

[conarb]

I don't inspect electrical, but the electrical inspector checks most at rough in, and the rest there is the documentation on site.

Walking on a roof or testing a smoke alarm doesn't require me to remove any of the construction...

I just mentioned it since Tiger does walk roofs, our inspectors aren't allaowed to walk roofs or climb ladders, yet our inspectors have no problems with opening fixtures and/or panels.

I'm sure you guys remember me saying that we contractors and inspectors were always friends, I'd go to their retirement parties and take them to my Home Builders' meetings, there is an interesting article in today's paper about a former customer of mine, Andy Mousalimas, Andy had a well-known bar called the Kings X, he originated Trivia Contests and sports fantasy leagues. Bar/resturant owners drove me nuts refusing to close down while remodeling them, one day Andy came to me with a cocktail glass in his hands caressing it, he said: "You are never here, you aren't showing any love for my bar, when I make a drink for a man I make it with love." The next day a building inspector friend stopped by, I introduced him to Andy saying: "Any time Warren comes by give him anything he wants to drink". From then on Warren stopped by for a couple of hours per day supervising my men with a bottle of beer in hand, Andy was happy, I was really showing love for his bar by putting a building inspector to work on it. See we can all be friends.

 

[my250r11]

Last AHJ we required contractor to provide ladder. This one is much larger so we do roofs as we have time. Not sure how you can give a respectable inspection on a roof with out climbing it. You can only see so much from the ground. If you don't inspect it it is more of a tax than a fee and shouldn't require the permit at all. MHO.

 

[conarb]

Last AHJ we required contractor to provide ladder. This one is much larger so we do roofs as we have time. Not sure how you can give a respectable inspection on a roof with out climbing it. You can only see so much from the ground. If you don't inspect it it is more of a tax than a fee and shouldn't require the permit at all. MHO.

To walk on the roof you have to be tied-off according to OSHA and CalOSHA, so be prepared to buy that climbing gear, OSHA, we've become a nation of kittens.