Tempered glass labels

[ICE]

R308.1 Identification. Except as indicated in Section R308.1.1 each pane of glazing installed in hazardous locations as defined in Section R308.4 shall be provided with a manufacturer’s designation specifying who applied the designation, designating the type of glass and the safety glazing standard with which it com- plies, which is visible in the final installation. The designation shall be acid etched, sandblasted, ceramic-fired, laser etched, embossed, or be of a type which once applied cannot be removed without being destroyed. A label shall be permitted in lieu of the manufacturer’s designation.

Exceptions:

1. For other than tempered glass, manufacturer’s designations are not required provided the building official approves the use of a certificate, affidavit or other evidence confirming compliance with this code.

2. Tempered spandrel glass is permitted to be identified by the manufacturer with a removable paper designation.

Clearly the code allows a label in lieu of a designation and a designation carries the description as something "which once applied cannot be removed without being destroyed." There is no indication that a label carries the same description and in fact, spandrel glass "is permitted to be identified by the manufacturer with a removable paper designation." So there we have a "designation" that's a removable paper designation (read label) whereas just above that, a designation was identified as something other than a label.

It is noteworthy that only spandrel glass is allowed to be identified with a "removable paper designation but a label can be used in lieu of a designation." Indications are that a label is not removable paper.

For other than tempered glass, a designation is not required so apparently safety glass is exempt as is heat strengthened glass.

To further confuse me, there are two tables that generate questions like "What the heck are they talking about."

There you have it. Your guess is as good as mine. Maybe somebody here has a handle on it but for now I ask for, and have been getting, etched glass. As I stated earlier, I've not been presented with a label. I either find etched glass or nothing and when I ask for proof, etched glass is installed.

The first time I am exposed to a label, I will ask how am I to be sure that it is a label since there is no clear understanding of what is a label and, just as important, what is not.

I know that what I have posted here is no help with your situation.........Get a letter from the manufacturer.

 

[Sifu]

Well, at least I'm not the only one baffled by the equivocation in the code. I too had never been presented with anything other than etched glass. Unfortunately I seem to run in to a whole lot of new things here, and most of them are really pushing the limits of the code. I havn't checked 09 or 12 or any other state codes to see if they have anything clearer but I will.

 

[conarb]

The code doesn't require tempered glass, it requires "safety glazing", ever see a set of 15 lite french doors with 30 bugs in tempered glass? I've had customers screaming about the ugly bugs, never even oriented the same. I solved the problem by going to laminated glass that doesn't have to be bugged, laminated glass also serves many other purposes (sound proofing, burglar proofing blocking out 99% of UV rays etc.). Tempered glass scratches terribly whn anyone takes a razor blade to it.

Exceptions:1. For other than tempered glass, manufacturer's designations

are not required, provided the building official

approves the use of a certificate, affidavit or other evidence

confirming compliance with this code.

Cardinal Glass wrote a good Service Bulletin on the subject. FG03

 

[fireguy]

There you have it. Your guess is as good as mine. Maybe somebody here has a handle on it but for now I ask for, and have been getting, etched glass. As I stated earlier, I've not been presented with a label. I either find etched glass or nothing and when I ask for proof, etched glass is installed.

The first time I am exposed to a label, I will ask how am I to be sure that it is a label since there is no clear understanding of what is a label and, just as important, what is not.

I know that what I have posted here is no help with your situation.........Get a letter from the manufacturer.

Would an invoice from the supplier, listing the code compliance help?

What happens if the individual glass lights are cut to size for the job, from a code compliant large piece of glass? Then who would supply the label or the etching?

 

[mark handler]

Would an invoice from the supplier, listing the code compliance help? What happens if the individual glass lights are cut to size for the job, from a code compliant large piece of glass? Then who would supply the label or the etching?

You mean the invoice for the job down the road? Or the invoice for the stuff they returned.

 

[KZQuixote]

You mean the invoice for the job down the road? Or the invoice for the stuff they returned.

Got to agree. Paper docs are worthless after the fact. There has to be some supportable documentation from an on site inspection.

Bill

 

[ICE]

Would an invoice from the supplier, listing the code compliance help? What happens if the individual glass lights are cut to size for the job, from a code compliant large piece of glass? Then who would supply the label or the etching?

I don't know but I've been told that tempered glass can't be cut unless it is first de-tempered.

 

[KZQuixote]

I don't know but I've been told that tempered glass can't be cut unless it is first de-tempered.

Glass cannot be detempered. Cut it, temper it and live with it.

Bill

 

[mark handler]

:agree

Glass cannot be detempered or Cut after tempering

 

[ICE]

Glass cannot be detempered or Cut after tempering

The people behind this website claim otherwise.

http://www.warmtips.com/20060105.htm

 

[mark handler]

The people behind this website claim otherwise.http://www.warmtips.com/20060105.htm

"Once tempered, glass cannot be cut without shattering. "http://www.warmtips.com/20050921.htm

"De-tempering is a simple process. Just fire the glass in a kiln to above the annealing range of the glass -- above 1100F/600C will be sufficient for almost all commonly used glasses. Then anneal using a basic annealing schedule and the glass will no longer be tempered."http://www.warmtips.com/20050921.htm

So they remelt/reprocess the tempered glass to remove the tempering....

You or the contractor cannot De-temper glass.

You are not going to raise the glass to 1100F/600C.

 

[ICE]

So they remelt/reprocess the tempered glass to remove the tempering....You or the contractor cannot De-temper glass.

You are not going to raise the glass to 1100F/600C.

I was answering fireguy who said this: "What happens if the individual glass lights are cut to size for the job, from a code compliant large piece of glass?" I said that it couldn't be done unless the glass was de-tempered. I didn't suggest that anyone do it.

 

[mark handler]

I was answering fireguy who said this: "What happens if the individual glass lights are cut to size for the job, from a code compliant large piece of glass?" I said that it couldn't be done unless the glass was de-tempered. I didn't suggest that anyone do it.

"Once tempered, glass cannot be cut without shattering. "

http://www.warmtips.com/20050921.htm

It becomes "CULLET"

 

[Frank]

Would an invoice from the supplier, listing the code compliance help? What happens if the individual glass lights are cut to size for the job, from a code compliant large piece of glass? Then who would supply the label or the etching?

A number of years ago had french doors and sidelights in a personal injury attorney's conference room and the glass was delivered without bugs. Invoice stated tempered glass. Was move in time and they wanted TCO without etching--we field tested one of the 3 extra pieces that came in the same shipment by dropping it in the dumpster and it broke into 3 sections--not tempered fail. Shipping mixups occur regularly--have often gotten the wrong car part in the right box.

Laminated glass and polycarbonate safety glazing materials can be field cut and you can tell if they are what they say the are in the field by looking at edge, reflections off interlayer or tapping--hence the exception for allowing certificates for these other than tempered materials.

 

[Sifu]

Pretty sure you can't cut temptered glass.

 

[tmurray]

A number of years ago had french doors and sidelights in a personal injury attorney's conference room and the glass was delivered without bugs. Invoice stated tempered glass. Was move in time and they wanted TCO without etching--we field tested one of the 3 extra pieces that came in the same shipment by dropping it in the dumpster and it broke into 3 sections--not tempered fail. Shipping mixups occur regularly--have often gotten the wrong car part in the right box.Laminated glass and polycarbonate safety glazing materials can be field cut and you can tell if they are what they say the are in the field by looking at edge, reflections off interlayer or tapping--hence the exception for allowing certificates for these other than tempered materials.

If you have the extra piece to test, otherwise I find it hard to believe that you would be held liable as a building inspector if a applicant submitted an invoice stating tempered glass because someone has removed a label. The liability rests solely with the manufacturer/distributor...At least here in Canada...

 

[tmurray]

You may be able to cut it using a lithium-ion laser, while it is technically melting a line through the glass to separate it into two pieces, the end result would be the same.

 

[Sifu]

Photos of the "label". Owner had an independant glass company come out, they verified to him that the glass should have a bug. Now he has supposedly ordered the real deal. Evidently the supplier wasn't able or willing to provide the labels that I requested.

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj584/raspicher/HPIM0029.jpg

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj584/raspicher/HPIM0030.jpg

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj584/raspicher/HPIM0032.jpg

Scotch tape holding it on the window and what appears to be standard laminating paper backing. Owner feels duped by the contractor and supplier and has agreed to give me the old sashes to break when the new ones come in so we'll see.

 

[fatboy]

Those pictures are a riot.........anxious to hear the results of the field testing........

 

[pwood]

Photos of the "label". Owner had an independant glass company come out, they verified to him that the glass should have a bug. Now he has supposedly ordered the real deal. Evidently the supplier wasn't able or willing to provide the labels that I requested.http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj584/raspicher/HPIM0029.jpg

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj584/raspicher/HPIM0030.jpg

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj584/raspicher/HPIM0032.jpg

Scotch tape holding it on the window and what appears to be standard laminating paper backing. Owner feels duped by the contractor and supplier and has agreed to give me the old sashes to break when the new ones come in so we'll see.

might i suggest using an Estwing 24 ounce steel handled framing hammer. be sure to wear eye protection:agree

 

[Sifu]

There are a total of eight sashes. Thinking of some creative ways to to test the "label". Right now thinking .45 or 5.56, depending on where I can do the deed.

 

[conarb]

Sifu:

All you have to do is make them have the glass professionally cleaned, they will take a razor blade to the glass, come back and if the glass is scratched you will have confirmed that it is tempered glass.

 

[Sifu]

BTW, I tried the smart-phone and sunglasses test on two pieces of glass. One from a picture frame (not tempered) and one a glass shelf (pretty sure its tempered but not 100%, did have scratches) and the test didn't work. Then again I could have just done it wrong. The glass at the house was spot-less and no scratches but thats not really proof. SIG will prove it one way or the other.

 

[Sifu]

UPDATE: Field tested "tempered window" sticker sashes. A picture is worth a thousand shards.

http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj584/raspicher/HPIM0060.jpg