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two architects - one for design , another for construction

Discussion in 'Architectural & Engineering Topics' started by Kevin0616, May 14, 2020.

  1. Kevin0616

    Kevin0616 Registered User

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    How feasible is it to hire one architect for the design and a different one for construction?
     
  2. jar546

    jar546 *****istrator

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    Please elaborate
     
  3. Ty J.

    Ty J. Sawhorse

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    One to perform design and one to perform construction administration? Is this what you are referring too?

    I guess that you could, but any RFI/ASI would need to still be prepared by the design AoR.
     
  4. Sifu

    Sifu Gold Member

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    I usually ask for the DP of record, or "in responsible charge". I want ONE entity to be responsible for reviewing other work and making sure there are no conflicts. This includes the engineers. Code language for this is in 107.3.4.
     
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  5. Kevin0616

    Kevin0616 Registered User

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    The cutoff line is the building permit. One to work on getting the building permit. The other one is to perform functions from the start to the finish of construction and the final sign-off. I do not know what are the specific functions of the architect during the construction? not much?
     
  6. tmurray

    tmurray Registered User

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    In Canada, this should not be that much of an issue. The first architect will be the one producing the plans and getting everything necessary to the building official for the permit. The second architect will produce all the required inspection reports for the construction inspections and certify the work is to code and in conformance with the plans.
     
  7. cda

    cda Sawhorse

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    As in one designs the shell and another

    Designs the interior?
     
  8. cda

    cda Sawhorse

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    Or one may do Pretty and the other does code?
     
  9. Kevin0616

    Kevin0616 Registered User

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  10. RLGA

    RLGA Sawhorse

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    Completely feasible and is done on many occasions. The architect providing construction contract administration (CCA), if registered, can make interpretations of the documents and issue changes without consulting the design architect. This arrangement can be accomplished in one of two ways:
    1. Design architect does the design through permitting, then another architect assumes the CCA responsibilities. There is no agreement between the design architect and the CCA architect. I've seen this happen on municipal projects where the municipality first hires an architect to do the design--the owner-architect agreement is for the design only. Then they execute a separate owner-architect agreement for CCA services. If the municipality didn't like working with the design architect but didn't fire them, they just don't sign a CCA services agreement with them and give it to another architect.
    2. Design architect either does not like performing CCA services, or they are in a location that doesn't allow them frequent access to the project site (e.g., out-of-state). They will then hire another architect (a local one if the design architect is not local) to perform CCA services, but retain all rights through an agreement to approve changes, review submittals, etc.
     
  11. Kevin0616

    Kevin0616 Registered User

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    @RLGA Thanks. When you say "...but retain all rights through an agreement to approve changes, review submittals, etc," you mean to retain all rights to the original design architect, not the CCA architect?
     
  12. khsmith55

    khsmith55 Bronze Member

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    I agree with RLGA with a few comments. If the "design Architects" Seal is on the Construction Documents it becomes a bit "sticky" if any changes are made, ASI's or supplementary drawings are issued/provided. At the very least, the CCA Architect should affix HIS/HER seal to ANY ASI's or supplementary drawings. Are you an Owner or AHJ? Just my thoughts.

    Ken
     
  13. tmurray

    tmurray Registered User

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    That one would be more like the design architect hiring another architect to do the inspections and reporting for the construction, so the agreement is between the architects. This would likely be regulated by the Architect's Act in Ontario or through their professional association. Not necessarily something you would need to worry about in regular circumstances.
     
  14. RLGA

    RLGA Sawhorse

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    Correct.
     
  15. RLGA

    RLGA Sawhorse

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    Ken, I agree, that is why I stated "if registered" for the CCA architect. Only a registrant can modify another registrant's documents (if permitted within their discipline, that is).
     
  16. Mark K

    Mark K Platinum Member

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    In my opinion 107.3.4 is an attempt to regulate the practice of architecture. The problem is that the entity adopting the building code does not have the authority to regulate the practice of architecture. Thus such provision is not enforceable.

    As long as any submission to the building department is stamped by a properly licensed individual it should be of no concern to the building department.
     
  17. Kevin0616

    Kevin0616 Registered User

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    I am the owner. At this point, I have two options to move forward.
    The first one is to terminate my agreement with the current architect and find a new one to continue the design for building permit.
    The second is to continue with the current architect to get the permit (she will sign and seal the plan drawings for permit application). After that, I do not want to have anything to do with the original architect and hire a new one, to complete the project. I am not sure if option 2 is feasible - having nothing to do with the original architect after getting the permit.
     
  18. RLGA

    RLGA Sawhorse

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    I don't think Section 107.3.4 is trying to regulate the practice of architecture at all. All it is asking is that the AHJ be informed when the registered design professional in responsible charge is replaced with another.

    For comparison, do you think that an owner would like to know if the design architect they hired decided to pass off their design responsibility to another architect?
     
  19. Mark K

    Mark K Platinum Member

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    The AHJ is informed of who is the design professional when he sees the architects stamp on the submission. We need to remember that while the design professional may have obligations to the owner it is the Owner not the design professional that has the obligation to provide a building in compliance with the building code and other laws. The design professionals documents are instruments of service that communicate recommendations to the Owner.

    The building departments role is limited to the enforcement of building code. The contract between the owner and the architect is not a concern of the building department. In spite of language in the building code to the contrary the building code cannot regulate the practice of architecture or engineering and the building code has no ability to define the contractual relationship between the owner and the design professional.

    The roles of the various design professionals is defined by the architect owner agreement which is not something that the building department has the power to enforce. If the original architect hires another architect to perform certain services the original architect is still responsible to the owner. Another architect would not take on QA responsibilities unless he had a contract so the possibility of the architect handing off CD services to another Architect who has no agreement with the owner and is not being paid by the design architect is hard to imagine.

    Mandating one architect or engineer who is in responsible charge of the whole project is inconsistent with The Professional Engineers Act in California which recognizes that a professional engineer may have responsibility for a limited aspect of the project.
     
  20. e hilton

    e hilton Bronze Member

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    That is possible, but the second architect can only oversee the construction, they cannot make any changes to the plans. So if something comes up ... unforseen or hidden conditions ... you might have a problem.
    Check with your jurisdiction, see if the AoR has to submit a document at the end of the project to certify all work was done in accordance with the permit plans. The second architect may not be allowed to do that, and the first one may refuse if you left on bad terms, and then you won’t be able to get a CO. (In Maryland it’s U&O).
     

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