Wedding Venue Questions concerning exits and plumbing

[Meadowbend99]

I have a project that needs to comply with 2012 IBC. There is an existing Manor (Super large house) that my client is purchasing and turning into a wedding venue. The property is 25 acres with several smaller houses along with the main manor house. They are not looking to make significant changes to the existing properties except adding ramps for entry.

They are adding a metal building ballroom behind the house and attached to the main manor with an upstairs covered breezeway connecting the existing to the new. They want a really nice stairway leading from the upstairs to the middle of the ballroom space to use as a bride and groom entry. It is not an interior stair leading to the exterior, so it cannot be used as an exit stair. We are adding a 2nd level to the ballroom with an occupant load over 100 that this stair comes off from. If you're up on the 2nd level you have the ability to exit to the main manor as a horizontal exit. I'm trying to see if there is a way to not add another stair from that level leading to the exterior. The ballroom is only 2 levels, as is the Manor house. Could it be considered exiting through an intervening space if they use the central stairs and go from ballroom space to ballroom space and exit through a first floor exterior door?

They are also adding a Chapel to the property. Ceremonies are only for wedding guests and will only last 30 min. to 1 hr. The Chapel is approximately 160' from the entry to the Ballroom and will hold 300 guests. Per code it would require 2 men's toilets and 5 women's. Since the spaces are so close together and the purpose of the Chapel is on a short time frame, is it possible to reduce that number in the Chapel. Could they omit the drinking fountain since they are so close to the dining rooms? Or omit the service sink and utilize the sink at the Ballroom?

 

[cda]

Welcome

 

[cda]

Is this in an incorporated city or in county area??


Not a plumber, but more than likely sharing will not be allowed

Are all these buildings sprinkled?

""Could it be considered exiting through an intervening space if they use the central stairs and go from ballroom space to ballroom space and exit through a first floor exterior door?""

Able to take a picture of a simple floor plan showing this and post??

 

[cda]

Not sure if 1016.1 ex 4 helps you.


I thought 708.2 might help you, but does not appear so

 

[Meadowbend99]

It's in a county, Houston area - Harris County. Not as strict as the cities on plumbing, but they're still pretty strict on fire code related and exits. The building is over 5,000 so it will need to be sprinklered. I'll try to post an image later.

 

[north star]

@ ~ @

" There is an existing Manor (Super large house) that my client is purchasing and turning into a wedding venue. "

So, are they changing Occ. Groups from a very large Single Family Dwelling
( SFD ) to an Assembly Occupancy Group for the wedding venue ?....Please describe
the intended purpose of the very large Manor House ?

Also, has an RDP designed a fully compliant ADA Package for the new metal bldg.,
...the new Chapel, ...Guests Parking, ...Site Entry Routes ?......If things deteriorate
and the Fire Dept. has to respond onto this property, are the driveways large enough
for Fire Dept. vehicles, possibly an Apparatus Truck, to access ?......Is there a
legible, "able to be easily seen" Site Address at the entrance to this property ?

@ ~ @

 

[cda]

It is in a Texas county area

Sometimes they do not enforce all the rules

 

[north star]

@ ~ @

" Sometimes they do not enforce all the rules "

Agreed sir !.......Just trying to provide questions related to
the OP, and to [ hopefully ] stimulate some dialogue.

@ ~ @

 

[steveray]

Most of what you are asking for would be up to the AHJ, at least for the plumbing stuff, there might be some wiggle room in the model code, but not a whole lot. For the exiting stuff, I would think that we would need a drawing or a lot more info to make that call...What is the travel distance off of the second level of the ballroom through the first?

 

[Paul Sweet]

IBC 403.3.3 Location of toilet facilities in occupancies other than malls.
In occupancies other than covered and open mall buildings, the required public and employee toilet facilities shall be located not more than one story above or below the space required to be provided with toilet facilities, and the path of travel to such facilities shall not exceed a distance of 500 feet (152 m).

 

[Yikes]

And if you were in UPC/CPC world, location of toilet facilities would be found in UPC 422.4. Similar language.

 

[steveray]

That's one of the sections I was thinking of Paul, Thanks!....The issue I would have then would be that as a change of use there would have to be an accessible route between the 2 which might get costly...

 

[ADAguy]

I see no mention od ADA compliance other than ramps, what of second floor access and brides RR?

Will plans be reviewed by a TAS?

 

[mark handler]

2015 IPC Table 403
300 Guests
150M 150F
4 male toilet 1 urinal per 40
4 Female toilet
1 lavatory each

2015 UPC Table 422.1
300 Guests
150M 150F
2 Male toilet up to 150 plus 1 urinal
4 Female toilet up to 200
1 lavatory each

The Accessible path of travel to such facilities shall not exceed a distance of 500 feet. for both the UBC and the IBC

 

[ADAguy]

Yes, and what of 2nd floor access for each building, maybe a LULA?

 

[steveray]

Yes, and what of 2nd floor access for each building, maybe a LULA?

Maybe it's a mezzanine? Maybe it is less that 3000 ft? All "features on first floor.......Who knows!

 

[Meadowbend99]

2015 IPC Table 403
300 Guests
150M 150F
4 male toilet 1 urinal per 40
4 Female toilet
1 lavatory each

2015 UPC Table 422.1
300 Guests
150M 150F
2 Male toilet up to 150 plus 1 urinal
4 Female toilet up to 200
1 lavatory each

The Accessible path of travel to such facilities shall not exceed a distance of 500 feet. for both the UBC and the IBC

They are not using fixed seating so the occupant load is approx. 500 which calls for 1 per 75 for an A-2 occupancy.

 

[Meadowbend99]

I've spoken with ADA and TAS and since this is a small business they are not bringing the Manor all the way up to compliance. They will start a capital improvement fund for future remodeling related to making it more accessible, in the meantime, there is an elevator to upstairs. Most of the doors are 3' or larger. They will need ramps for access into the Manor and there will be a ramp leading from the Manor to the Ballroom.

Since we are not making changes to the Manor house and it's unrestricted property off a private road I don't think we'll need to change the occupancy type, but I'll look into that. We will add exit signs and I'll double check distances, as well as locate fire extinguishers. The Manor house will be used as additional mingling space during weddings as well as being able to hold smaller functions in the house.

We went ahead and added an emergency exit stair off the upstairs patio connection between buildings.

 

[ADAguy]

Congratulations on "attempting" to go in the right direction, elev and ramps are good..
You will need accessible RR's on the second floor or provide accessible porta potties for disabled brides and guests.
What of your parking area, is there an accessible POT to the manor?

 

[mark handler]

I've spoken with ADA ..."

You mean the DOJ?
ADA is a Law, not an entity. you cannot speak to a law.

Even is TAS and the DOJ say you do not need to do something, does not mean the designer and/or the owner will not be sued.

 

[Meadowbend99]

Correct. They are aware of this, that's why they are doing what they can now and will adapt what's remaining later.

 

[ADAguy]

Truer words were never spoken, Texas, like Florida and CA is a source of ADA claims but less likely do to the gun toaters in the out lying areas.
Plaintiffs are more likely to "disappear" then to appear in court (smiling)