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What would you do?
- Thread starter jar546
- Start date
mark handler
SAWHORSE
At least you could use the restroom....Pcinspector1 said:
MASSDRIVER
Registered User
"403.2 Separate facilities.
Where plumbing fixtures are required, separate facilities shall be provided for each sex."
Men.
Women.
Transsexuals, male to female.
Transsexuals, female to male.
Transsexuals, Male to female, identifying as male
Transsexuals, Female, to male, identifying as female
Transsexuals, male to female, identifying as female
Transsexuals, female to male, identifying as male
Lesbian, identifying as female
Lesbian, identifying as male
Gay, identifying as male
Gay, identifying as female
Decline to state
Other
Just make it all unisex. I can blow up a bathroom and make just as uninhabitable as any woman can. Well, most any woman.
As for the owner, he could just pull the sign, and tell everybody to pound sand and say its not locked. If some nosy building inspector dropped by I would tell him it's occupied. Go away.
Just because a BO does not get involved in business that's not his does not make him lazy. He can keep himself busy with inspections, his real job.
Brent.
Where plumbing fixtures are required, separate facilities shall be provided for each sex."
Men.
Women.
Transsexuals, male to female.
Transsexuals, female to male.
Transsexuals, Male to female, identifying as male
Transsexuals, Female, to male, identifying as female
Transsexuals, male to female, identifying as female
Transsexuals, female to male, identifying as male
Lesbian, identifying as female
Lesbian, identifying as male
Gay, identifying as male
Gay, identifying as female
Decline to state
Other
Just make it all unisex. I can blow up a bathroom and make just as uninhabitable as any woman can. Well, most any woman.
As for the owner, he could just pull the sign, and tell everybody to pound sand and say its not locked. If some nosy building inspector dropped by I would tell him it's occupied. Go away.
Just because a BO does not get involved in business that's not his does not make him lazy. He can keep himself busy with inspections, his real job.
Brent.
mjesse
Registered User
I thought our real job was to tell everyone how superior we are to them?MASSDRIVER said:
steveray
SAWHORSE
I don't know.....most people couldn't handle the car wheel and I don't know if it satisfied the "closed fist" criteria.....mark handler said:
Darren Emery
Registered User
I'm glad you started this one as well.jar546 said:
In many ways, I find these type of discussions much more interesting than straight forward code questions. Having come to municipal government 19 years ago, with nothing but an entrepreneurial background, I have spent a lot of time, energy, and effort trying to bring a business ownership mentality and accountability into local government.
The bigger picture question of what drives an AHJ can be encouraging, fascinating, or down right scary, depending upon who's steering the ship.
What's our true north? Answers vary greatly, depending upon who you ask, and whether they are willing to give an honest answer:
The greater common good.
A safer built environment.
Doing the right thing.
Avoiding catastrophe.
Protecting an ignorant public.
Happy tax payers.
Non-complaining tax payers.
Job security.
A paycheck.
Beer 30.
My guess is those that are tic'd off at Jar's statements have their compass tied pretty closely to the bottom of that list.
MASSDRIVER
Registered User
That goes without saying.mjesse said:
I meant after that.
Brent.
MASSDRIVER
Registered User
I also agree how revealing g this thread is.
The obvious answer as a building official, or even someone that knows what the rules are, is to just visit and inform the guy that what he is doing is in violation of whatever code he is in violation of (which is unclear) and document the visit.
Apparently there are those carrying chips on their shoulders and are to mete out justice.
What are you, Batman?
How about a little critical thinking here.
It's possible, knowing how uncaring your average customer can be, that he reasonably likes to keep one bathroom clean for employees, an actual, REAL health concern (they are serving food) and figures he can reasonably unlock it in case a handicapper needs it. His motives may be pure, not some diabolical plot to keep handicappers out of the restroom.
A simple explanation is all that's needed. Not some self grandising administrative assault.
Geez.
Brent
The obvious answer as a building official, or even someone that knows what the rules are, is to just visit and inform the guy that what he is doing is in violation of whatever code he is in violation of (which is unclear) and document the visit.
Apparently there are those carrying chips on their shoulders and are to mete out justice.
What are you, Batman?
How about a little critical thinking here.
It's possible, knowing how uncaring your average customer can be, that he reasonably likes to keep one bathroom clean for employees, an actual, REAL health concern (they are serving food) and figures he can reasonably unlock it in case a handicapper needs it. His motives may be pure, not some diabolical plot to keep handicappers out of the restroom.
A simple explanation is all that's needed. Not some self grandising administrative assault.
Geez.
Brent
Mech
Registered User
IBC 3411.2 Maintenance of facilities.
A facility that is constructed or altered to be accessible shall be maintained accessible during occupancy.
A facility that is constructed or altered to be accessible shall be maintained accessible during occupancy.
ICE
Oh Well
Just put MEN on the door.MASSDRIVER said:
mark handler
SAWHORSE
Does not resolve all issues in OPICE said:
MASSDRIVER
Registered User
Have another scotch.mark handler said:
You will eventually get it.
Brent.
north star
Sawhorse
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2009
- Messages
- 4,596
~ = ~ = ~
From the `12 IPMC, SECTION 104 - DUTIES AND POWERS OF THE CODE OFFICIAL:
[A] 104.1 General:
"The code official is hereby authorized and directed to enforce the provisions of this code.
The code official shall have the authority to render interpretations of this code and to adopt
policies and procedures in order to clarify the application of its provisions..........Such
interpretations, policies and procedures shall be in compliance with the intent and purpose
of this code..................Such policies and procedures shall not have the effect of waiving
requirements specifically provided for in this code."
This particular section of the IPMC "requires" the Code Official to respond to violations,
or potential violations in the community........A "due dilgence" investigation is required.
That investigation must be in writing and thoroughly documented throughout its entire
process.
Initially, it would be just good common sense to conduct a visit to the site in question,
...document thru written reports and with pictures. [ FWIW, ...non-altered, clear,
actual dated pictures carry a lot of weight in a court of law. ], ...form a Plan of
Action to address the violation(s) or potential violation(s), and to most certainly discuss
& include the jurisdictional legal department in the Plan of Action, then to contact the
owner & occupant of the premises, of the investigation........Maybe just talking with the
individuals; and by all means "documenting thoroughly" the initial visit, ...will bring a
reasonable, non-"heavy-handed", compliant solution........If not, then proceed to the
next step in the process, ...usually an official Notice of Violation(s) sent thru the U.S.
Postal Service, or in person [ <----- with a legible signature ] on any Notices delivered
& received.
I won't bore you all with the sections in the IPMC that provide the authority to
address such issues that **jar546** asked in the OP, but the authority and
responsibility to act is there !
Essentially, ...IMO, 2 separate unisex toilets AND access to them is required !
Section 2902.3.1 [ in the `12 IBC ] and Section 403.3 [ in the `12 IPC ]
requires access to public toilets whether or not the Public actual purchase
anything or not [ RE: [P] 2902.3.1- Access: "The route to the public toilet
facilities required by Section 2902.3 shall not pass through kitchens, storage
rooms or closets..........Access to the required facilities shall be from within
the building or from the exterior of the building...........All routes shall comply
with the accessibility requirements of this code...........The public shall have
access to the required toilet facilities at all times that the building is
occupied." ]
~ = ~ = ~
"IF" the IPMC has been adopted in that jurisdiction, then the Code Official is directed to \shall enforce the requirements of this code.
From the `12 IPMC, SECTION 104 - DUTIES AND POWERS OF THE CODE OFFICIAL:
[A] 104.1 General:
"The code official is hereby authorized and directed to enforce the provisions of this code.
The code official shall have the authority to render interpretations of this code and to adopt
policies and procedures in order to clarify the application of its provisions..........Such
interpretations, policies and procedures shall be in compliance with the intent and purpose
of this code..................Such policies and procedures shall not have the effect of waiving
requirements specifically provided for in this code."
This particular section of the IPMC "requires" the Code Official to respond to violations,
or potential violations in the community........A "due dilgence" investigation is required.
That investigation must be in writing and thoroughly documented throughout its entire
process.
Initially, it would be just good common sense to conduct a visit to the site in question,
...document thru written reports and with pictures. [ FWIW, ...non-altered, clear,
actual dated pictures carry a lot of weight in a court of law. ], ...form a Plan of
Action to address the violation(s) or potential violation(s), and to most certainly discuss
& include the jurisdictional legal department in the Plan of Action, then to contact the
owner & occupant of the premises, of the investigation........Maybe just talking with the
individuals; and by all means "documenting thoroughly" the initial visit, ...will bring a
reasonable, non-"heavy-handed", compliant solution........If not, then proceed to the
next step in the process, ...usually an official Notice of Violation(s) sent thru the U.S.
Postal Service, or in person [ <----- with a legible signature ] on any Notices delivered
& received.
I won't bore you all with the sections in the IPMC that provide the authority to
address such issues that **jar546** asked in the OP, but the authority and
responsibility to act is there !
Essentially, ...IMO, 2 separate unisex toilets AND access to them is required !
Section 2902.3.1 [ in the `12 IBC ] and Section 403.3 [ in the `12 IPC ]
requires access to public toilets whether or not the Public actual purchase
anything or not [ RE: [P] 2902.3.1- Access: "The route to the public toilet
facilities required by Section 2902.3 shall not pass through kitchens, storage
rooms or closets..........Access to the required facilities shall be from within
the building or from the exterior of the building...........All routes shall comply
with the accessibility requirements of this code...........The public shall have
access to the required toilet facilities at all times that the building is
occupied." ]
~ = ~ = ~
Francis Vineyard
Registered User
In accordance with IPMC [A]102.7 and [A]102.7.2 only requires that plumbing facilities be sanitary and in working condition; I cannot find reference to ICC/ANSI provisions. http://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/accessibility/367-maintenance-ada-installations.html
jar546
Forum Coordinator
I'm going to chime in agains since my little tirade. Most of you seem to be forgetting to read the IPC and how it is different than the other adopted codes.
First and foremost, this is a plumbing issue which is causing an accessibility issue.
Unlike the other I-Codes, the IPC has a little known sentence at the end of 102.3 that says:
First and foremost, this is a plumbing issue which is causing an accessibility issue.
Unlike the other I-Codes, the IPC has a little known sentence at the end of 102.3 that says:
mark handler
SAWHORSE
Jeff
Some states alter the scoping sections and many are still using the UPC as the base code.
Some states alter the scoping sections and many are still using the UPC as the base code.
Francis Vineyard
Registered User
it means the plumbing system as defined in the IPC?jar546 said:
jar546
Forum Coordinator
102.3 is in the Maintenance portion of the code.
Many do use the UPC and many do alter the scoping sections.
Many do not and many use the IPC and adopt is as written.
This entire issue can be easily handled with a simple visit and discussion with the owner but not everyone feels the need to stop by after a written complaint is received unless it is near a donut shop.
Many do use the UPC and many do alter the scoping sections.
Many do not and many use the IPC and adopt is as written.
This entire issue can be easily handled with a simple visit and discussion with the owner but not everyone feels the need to stop by after a written complaint is received unless it is near a donut shop.
ICE
Oh Well
I'm beginning to think that you must have recently had an "accident". Try keeping a jar in the car Jar.jar546 said:
MASSDRIVER
Registered User
He keeps looking down trying to find out where his "unisex" is.ICE said:
I think it's an east coast thing.
Brent.
ICE
Oh Well
Well Brent....that's sure to get him going. Might even be a shlt storm headed west.MASSDRIVER said:
BSSTG
Gold Member
Tell the complainant it's a civil matter and he needs to hire an attorney.jar546 said:
BS
jar546
Forum Coordinator
So part of the reason for excessive litigation is the lack of enforcement by code officials who refuse to perform their job as outlined in the administration sections of the applicable codes?BSSTG said:
mark handler
SAWHORSE
Which goes to the reason Jeff posted the issue, it is NOT just a civil matter, it is a code compliance issue. Building Officials Enforce the compliance of all the codes, not just the ones they like or agree to.BSSTG said:
Government officials are immune from certain types of lawsuits, but failure to discharge the duty could negate that immunity.