When to call em on it?

[brudgers]

Re: When to call em on it?

[snip irrelevant response.]

If an man with pencil who draw prepares documents for construction in Illinois, they have to seal it.

Even on a project that does not require an man with pencil who draw.

The law is absolutely clear.

Is this clear enough for you?

http://www.idfpr.com/dpr/who/AR/Design_Code_Manual.pdf Page 6

GUIDELINES FOR CODE ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS

Code enforcement officials’ responsibilities relative to the design professions licensing and practice Acts include, but

are not limited to, the following:

Technical Submissions Reviews

Technical submissions for construction projects filed for approval for buildings, structures, or engineering works and

plats of survey are to be prepared under the direct supervision and control of the design professional sealing and

signing the documents in accordance with Guidelines for Technical Submissions as they apply to the specific

project. Such documents should be reviewed by the code enforcement official to assure conformance with local

laws, zoning, deed restrictions, codes and regulations, as well as applicable State and Federal laws. Technical

submissions for all non-exempt buildings or works are to have the seal(s) and original signature(s) of the design

professional(s) with a current valid license who prepared or caused the submissions to be prepared. Seals shall be

affixed in accordance with the respective Acts. Technical submissions for exempt projects shall also comply with

all standards and codes, but shall not require a design professional’s seal. The Professional Design Firm

registration number shall be included on the technical submissions.

The bold italic underline was done by me so you wouldn't miss it again. But then again, you missed the bold underlined text of the actual LAW I provided, so I don't hold out much hope.

The law says you can accept drawings without a seal...exempt projects don't require a seal.

The architect's law still requires the architect to seal it (the engineer's law may say otherwise).

Unsealed plans prepared by an architect only violate one law, not two...and probably don't do much for the architect's E&O rating.

The scope of the exemption is for all design professionals, the more specific requirements of the architect's law apply to architects.

It's one of those principles you learn over time, more specific requirements can over-ride general exemptions.

 

[brudgers]

Re: When to call em on it?

An Illinois registered man with pencil who draw shall stamp ALL drawings for ALL projects - prepared under his responsible charge. Exempt buildings shall not require a stamp for exempt buildings because exempt buildings are not required to have Construction Documents prepared by an Architect. If drawings for exempt buildings were prepared by an Illinois Registered Architect, it shall be stamped as required by other laws and regulations. What you quoted does not negate the Illinois registered man with pencil who draw's responsibility to stamp drawings prepared under his responsible charge.

Besides, what you are quoting from is a handbook. The text of the statutes of law trumps the guideline manual. The manual you quoted is a commentary of the law but not the law itself. No more then the ICC Commentary of the codes.

He wants to tell architects how to practice so much that he didn't even read page 17 of the handbook.

But then the handbook is on the internet so it must be the law.

 

[TJacobs]

Re: When to call em on it?

An Illinois registered man with pencil who draw shall stamp ALL drawings for ALL projects - prepared under his responsible charge. Exempt buildings shall not require a stamp for exempt buildings because exempt buildings are not required to have Construction Documents prepared by an Architect. If drawings for exempt buildings were prepared by an Illinois Registered Architect, it shall be stamped as required by other laws and regulations. What you quoted does not negate the Illinois registered man with pencil who draw's responsibility to stamp drawings prepared under his responsible charge.

Besides, what you are quoting from is a handbook. The text of the statutes of law trumps the guideline manual. The manual you quoted is a commentary of the law but not the law itself. No more then the ICC Commentary of the codes.

He wants to tell architects how to practice so much that he didn't even read page 17 of the handbook.

But then the handbook is on the internet so it must be the law.

I read page 17 but it does not apply, because the Act does not apply to exempt buildings. Another straw man.

The Manual is put out by the state agency in charge of writing the rules in how the law is interpreted by them because they are charged with it's enforcement. I feel safe in their interpretation as stated in the Manual.

There is nothing stopping you from sealing all your submissions for an exempt building, but unless I have a stricter ordinance it is not required for an exempt building.

I will agree it is illegal to present yourself as an architect if you are unlicensed or seal plans if you are unlicensed or copy plans that an architect drew and submit them if you are not that architect, even when a seal is not required. It is up to the OP to determine if this is the case.

I'm not telling you how to practice architecture. If it is so cut and dried, why do I get so many calls from DP's asking "do I really need to seal these" (because it will cost the owner more $$$)?

The fact that the law and the design manual are on the internet only makes it easier for those reading these postings to go read for themselves, in fact I encourage it.

 

[RickAstoria]

Re: When to call em on it?

An Illinois registered man with pencil who draw shall stamp ALL drawings for ALL projects - prepared under his responsible charge. Exempt buildings shall not require a stamp for exempt buildings because exempt buildings are not required to have Construction Documents prepared by an Architect. If drawings for exempt buildings were prepared by an Illinois Registered Architect, it shall be stamped as required by other laws and regulations. What you quoted does not negate the Illinois registered man with pencil who draw's responsibility to stamp drawings prepared under his responsible charge.

Besides, what you are quoting from is a handbook. The text of the statutes of law trumps the guideline manual. The manual you quoted is a commentary of the law but not the law itself. No more then the ICC Commentary of the codes.

He wants to tell architects how to practice so much that he didn't even read page 17 of the handbook.

But then the handbook is on the internet so it must be the law.

I take the words of the statutes not the commentary because the commentary is not law as the handbook is not adopted by rule of state senate and sealed by the Governor of Illinois and the other procedures of Law adoption. It is just an interpretation of the board(s) of Illinois to help understand the law. I take the literal words of the statutes over an interpretation. Unless I am looking for an interpretation. It is a interpretation resource not the law itself.

Agree, he forgot to read the very top of page 17 of the PDF (Page 16 of the document)

All technical submissions prepared by or under the personal supervision of a licensed design professionalshall bear that design professional’s seal, signature, and license expiration date. The licensee’s signature

shall be the original handwritten signature. Computer generated signatures or signatures reproduced by other

means are not acceptable. The technical submissions shall bear the corporate or assumed business name

and the design firm registration number in addition to the seal requirements.

 

[RickAstoria]

Re: When to call em on it?

An Illinois registered man with pencil who draw shall stamp ALL drawings for ALL projects - prepared under his responsible charge. Exempt buildings shall not require a stamp for exempt buildings because exempt buildings are not required to have Construction Documents prepared by an Architect. If drawings for exempt buildings were prepared by an Illinois Registered Architect, it shall be stamped as required by other laws and regulations. What you quoted does not negate the Illinois registered man with pencil who draw's responsibility to stamp drawings prepared under his responsible charge.

Besides, what you are quoting from is a handbook. The text of the statutes of law trumps the guideline manual. The manual you quoted is a commentary of the law but not the law itself. No more then the ICC Commentary of the codes.

He wants to tell architects how to practice so much that he didn't even read page 17 of the handbook.

But then the handbook is on the internet so it must be the law.

I read page 17 but it does not apply, because the Act does not apply to exempt buildings. Another straw man.

The Manual is put out by the state agency in charge of writing the rules in how the law is interpreted by them because they are charged with it's enforcement. I feel safe in their interpretation as stated in the Manual.

There is nothing stopping you from sealing all your submissions for an exempt building, but unless I have a stricter ordinance it is not required for an exempt building.

I will agree it is illegal to present yourself as an man with pencil who draw if you are unlicensed or seal plans if you are unlicensed or copy plans that an man with pencil who draw drew and submit them if you are not that man with pencil who draw, even when a seal is not required. It is up to the OP to determine if this is the case.

I'm not telling you how to practice architecture. If it is so cut and dried, why do I get so many calls from DP's asking "do I really need to seal these" (because it will cost the owner more $$$)?

The fact that the law and the design manual are on the internet only makes it easier for those reading these postings to go read for themselves, in fact I encourage it.

DANGEROUS Assumption. With your over-blatant and over simplistic statement that the Illinois statutory chapter doesn't apply to exempt buildings would mean that I can call myself an Architect when working on exempt buildings. Things don't work out that simple.

An Architect stamping requirement is not exempted because of the exemption of requiring an Architect to prepare drawings. A failure of the Architect to stamp his/her drawings is grounds to loose license or fined by the Architect Board of Illinois. You as a Plan Reviewer / Building Official may not require the plans to be stamped for an exempt building unless it is submitted by a Registered Architect of Illinois. No one may use the Architect title unless registered in Illinois UNLESS stated explicitly otherwise in the statutes of Illinois. Also the exemption does not exempt the application of the stamping requirements for their services. In other words, the exemption doesn't really apply to the services of an Architect.

 

[brudgers]

Re: When to call em on it?

From the document you quote:

Every licensed Architect shall have a reproducible seal, or facsimile, the print of which shall contain the name of the architect, the license number, and the words, “Licensed Architect, State of Illinois.” The licensed architect shall affix the signature, current date, date of license expiration and seal to the first sheet of any bound set or loose sheets of construction documents utilized as contract documents or prepared for the review and approval of any governmental or public authority having jurisdiction by that licensed architect or under that licensed architect’s direct supervision and control. The sheet of construction documents in which the seal is affixed shall indicate those documents or parts thereof for which the seal shall apply.The seal and dates may be electronically affixed. The signature must be in the original handwriting of the licensee.

Signatures generated by computer or by any other means shall not be permitted.

Hopefully at some point you will learn that there may be important differences between a page headed "Guidelines for Code Enforcement Officials" and one titled "Professional Seal and Signature Requirements: Architects Seal."

Of course, doing so would not only require understanding the difference between "guidelines" and "requirements," but a grasp of the basic idea that a single document may contain items of interest to two distinctly different groups, as well.

Given your attitude, I'm not surprised that architects have to call in order to keep up with your "unique" interpretations.

 

[RickAstoria]

Re: When to call em on it?

(- SNIP -)

I will agree it is illegal to present yourself as an man with pencil who draw if you are unlicensed or seal plans if you are unlicensed or copy plans that an man with pencil who draw drew and submit them if you are not that man with pencil who draw, even when a seal is not required. It is up to the OP to determine if this is the case.

I'm not telling you how to practice architecture. If it is so cut and dried, why do I get so many calls from DP's asking "do I really need to seal these" (because it will cost the owner more $$$)?

The fact that the law and the design manual are on the internet only makes it easier for those reading these postings to go read for themselves, in fact I encourage it.

I have a very rudimentary question, if the plans were prepared by the architect why would it cost more then the extra 10-15 minutes of the time to physically stamp & sign the drawings. You reviewed what you prepared before you send them out of your office, right?

If it was prepared by an unlicensed the person and it is an exempt building then the B.O. shouldn't be sending the unlicensed person to stamp & sign their drawings. If the plans were prepared by a Building Designer for an exempt building they should be accepted (not necessarily approved for permits - that involves Plan Review). If home owner comes in with a set of plans, look them over and if it is a total mess then you can have them go to an architect to prepare a set of plans but don't send them off to get the home-owner's drawings signed & stamp. Not acceptable. Violates architectural practice laws and regulations and is grounds for license revocation.

I can only see the Architect calling to wonder why you sent the home owner to them to prepare a set of drawings. The Architect can not sign & stamp drawings not prepared under their responsible supervision from start to finish. As a Building Designer, I will NOT ever sign a set of drawings already prepared by the home owner. I look at it only as a review. Once engaged as a Design Service, I am liable. If it is a drafting service then no. I would make clear indemnification clauses that says I will not take any fault in the design. I will not make decisions whatsoever as to the sizing of beams and stuff.

In other words, the owner will have to make those decisions and I'll refuse to provide them any answers. I'll tell them, look in the code book or tell them to get XYZ books and read/study it and the code books but I'm not telling them what size beam to use. Otherwise pay me design service pay.

If it was me designing such an SFR, I'd be expected to sign and make clear identification that I am the Building Designer and sign it. Part of my professional standard of care as a designer. If licensed, I would also have to stamp.

It can be a dog house for all we know.

Or

a Chicken Coop

It must bear the stamp of the Architect.

 

[sublime]

Re: When to call em on it?

brudgers,

For what its worth, in California, the Architects Practice Act is exactly how you are describing it. As a registered architect I am required to seal/stamp all my instruments of service regardless if the project requires a registered design professional or I am committing a misdemeanor. It has to do with taking responsibility for the design.

Unlicensed designers preparing plans within their legal limits also must identify themselves on their plans but obviously cannot seal/stamp them.

 

[peach]

Re: When to call em on it?

And yet... members of the public think we don't know what we're doing..

What a surprise..

 

[RickAstoria]

Re: When to call em on it?

And yet... members of the public think we don't know what we're doing..What a surprise..

Ignorance is bliss. Isn't it.

It is a mindset of undisciplined more wrinkled teenagers who gets it in their heads that they know it all just because they read it in a cartoon comic.

 

[JBI]

Re: When to call em on it?

Getting back to the OP for a moment, if that's alright with you folks, if the plans refer to an 'Architect', then they should identify exactly which Architect, IMHO. :roll:

 

[RickAstoria]

Re: When to call em on it?

Getting back to the OP for a moment, if that's alright with you folks, if the plans refer to an 'Architect', then they should identify exactly which Architect, IMHO. :roll:

Absolutely. In fact, it should identify the preparer of the plans having responsibility (ie. the one stamping the drawings.)

If it is not an architect AND the work is an exempt building then it shall bear the name of the person who prepared it and therefore responsible in clear print and should have a signature of that individual that does not obscure the printed name.

Simple enough?