Where to measure <8" recessed door clearances (404.2.4.3)

[Yikes]

See my markup below of ADA / CBC 11B 404.2.4.3 regarding obstructions (such as extra wall thickness) that create a recess at accessible doorways.
We know that when X>8" the full 18" maneuvering space must be provided.

The question is, when X<8", and the recess is allowed:

• Do you measure the perpendicular 60" clearance from the face of the door, as in figure #1 below?

-OR-

• Do you measure the 60" from the face of the obstruction that creates the recess, as noted in blue in figure #2 below?

***
Figure #1:

***
Figure #2:

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Face of door.

 

[Yikes]

Face of door.

To clarify, you are confirming that figure #1 complies with 2010 ADAS?

Such that the 53" below would be code compliant:

 

[steveray]

Yep...Fig 1

 

[mark handler]

The Federal Access Board, includes the recess in the clearances.
measured at/from the door

 

[Yikes]

View attachment 12901
The Federal Access Board, includes the recess in the clearances.
measured at/from the door

Yeah, my problem is that they never provide a helpful illustration that shows clearances when recess X is more than 0" but less than 8", as I attempted to do with figure #1 in my original post.

 

[Paul Sweet]

You can treat the door as being in a flat wall if the recess is less than 8".

 

[Yikes]

You can treat the door as being in a flat wall if the recess is less than 8".

Does that mean that if I had a 7" recess, I would only need 53" clear between the walls, like this?

 

[mark handler]

Does that mean that if I had a 7" recess, I would only need 53" clear between the walls, like this?

View attachment 12907

IMHO
NO

 

[Yikes]

IMHO
NO

Mark, I'm confused. Earlier in post #5 you said "measured at/from the door", which would mean we have 60" clear from face of door even as the 7" protruding wall leaves us only 53" clear from face of wall:

The Federal Access Board, includes the recess in the clearances.
measured at/from the door

 

[walker.t]

The Federal Access Board, includes the recess in the clearances.
measured at/from the door

I had the same image in mind when I read the original post. Here’s a link to the U.S. Access Board page with this graphic, you can download a PDF using the blue “PDF” button at the top-right.

U.S. Access Board - Chapter 4: Entrances, Doors, and Gates

The U.S. Access Board is a federal agency that promotes equality for people with disabilities through leadership in accessible design and the development of accessibility guidelines and standards for the built environment, transportation, communication, medical diagnostic equipment, and...

www.access-board.gov

Here’s a link to their video on maneuvering at doors, this takes you to the part of the animation regarding recessed doors, it’s about 20 seconds of animation and explanation:

 

[Yikes]

I had the same image in mind when I read the original post. Here’s a link to the U.S. Access Board page with this graphic, you can download a PDF using the blue “PDF” button at the top-right.

U.S. Access Board - Chapter 4: Entrances, Doors, and Gates

The U.S. Access Board is a federal agency that promotes equality for people with disabilities through leadership in accessible design and the development of accessibility guidelines and standards for the built environment, transportation, communication, medical diagnostic equipment, and...

www.access-board.gov

Here’s a link to their video on maneuvering at doors, this takes you to the part of the animation regarding recessed doors, it’s about 20 seconds of animation and explanation:

Walker T, thank you! This is really helpful, and I did not know that the Access Board had a YouTube page.

The animation clearly shows that until the recess is 18" wide, door clearances are measured from face of obstruction, not face of door. That means a 53" clearance would not be acceptable.



Unfortunately, the State of California in its infinite wisdom deleted ADAS figure 404.2.4.1(i) for a 54" depth form latch side, so this really limits our options when we have existing hallways less than 60" wide.

 

[walker.t]

Walker T, thank you! This is really helpful, and I did not know that the Access Board had a YouTube page.

You’re welcome! The animations are a nice introduction to topics in their technical guides.

Does that mean that if I had a 7" recess, I would only need 53" clear between the walls, like this?

I may be wrong but I don’t think you can notch out part of the door maneuvering clearance, it would be shifted 7” away from the face of the door then you start the 60” depth measurement.

 

[Yikes]

Thanks! Follow-up question - see image below:
Face of door "A" aligns with adjacent face of wall "D"
Baseboard "C" protrudes further into the door clearance than either A or D.
Door casing "B" protrudes further than A, C, or D.

Where do you measure the 60" perpendicular clearance? A/D? C? B?

 

[walker.t]

Where do you measure the 60" perpendicular clearance? A/D? C? B?

My understanding is that the 60” measurement would be taken from the wall (D) as long as nothing else (door casing B and baseboard C) pushes the door maneuvering clearance more than 8” away from the door, this is per the U.S. Access Board Technical Guide “Recessed Doors and Gates section:

U.S. Access Board - Chapter 4: Entrances, Doors, and Gates

The U.S. Access Board is a federal agency that promotes equality for people with disabilities through leadership in accessible design and the development of accessibility guidelines and standards for the built environment, transportation, communication, medical diagnostic equipment, and...

www.access-board.gov

The plan view illustrations I have seen show the wall with a finish material on it then casing extending beyond that into the door maneuvering clearance. But they never show the top edge of the baseboard below, so I can only assume they are measuring to the wall proper (say at 34” above the floor.) But maybe the intent is that baseboard is included in the term “casework.”

 

[Yikes]

I may be wrong but I don’t think you can notch out part of the door maneuvering clearance, it would be shifted 7” away from the face of the door then you start the 60” depth measurement.

So anything that protrudes beyond the face of the door creates a recess condition.

My understanding is that the 60” measurement would be taken from the wall (D) as long as nothing else (door casing B and baseboard C) pushes the door maneuvering clearance more than 8” away from the door, this is per the U.S. Access Board Technical Guide “Recessed Doors and Gates section:
But maybe the intent is that baseboard is included in the term “casework.”

If that is true, then door casing/molding trim "B" which sticks out the furthest and is creating a recess (perhaps 1" thick) for door A, and therefore the 60" width should be measured from trim "B". Is this correct?

 

[walker.t]

So anything that protrudes beyond the face of the door creates a recess condition.

Yes.

If that is true, then door casing/molding trim "B" which sticks out the furthest and is creating a recess (perhaps 1" thick) for door A, and therefore the 60" width should be measured from trim "B". Is this correct?

U.S. Access Board Technical Guide Chapter 4 says the maneuvering clearance is measured from the wall. If you were to measure from the face of the casing you know you’d be covered, but I get the impression you’re fighting for every inch you can get.

Yeah, my problem is that they never provide a helpful illustration that shows clearances when recess X is more than 0" but less than 8", as I attempted to do with figure #1 in my original post.

This is part of the problem, the drawings in the ADA are weak and the text doesn’t state from where the door maneuvering clearance is measured. The U.S. Access Board Technical Guide shows the measurement to the wall (which matches the text in that guide) but neither the ADA nor A117.1 specify to where the dimension should be taken.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

I had a problem a few times with the over 8" recess at doors because of a electrical box or other objects 6' or more above a 6" recessed door now made the door over 8" recessed from the front of the object. I don 't see how something 6' above the floor will affect a wheelchair's maneuvering space. I don't know ADA requirements but the ICC/ANSI does not say anything about how high the maneuvering space needs to be except as high as the door.

 

[walker.t]

I had a problem a few times with the over 8" recess at doors because of a electrical box or other objects 6' or more above a 6" recessed door now made the door over 8" recessed from the front of the object.

If something is 6’ above the floor but less than 80”, and projects more than 4” it will be considered a protruding object per ADA/A117.1 307.2, maybe that was the issue?

I don 't see how something 6' above the floor will affect a wheelchair's maneuvering space.

Something 6’ above the floor wouldn’t affect a wheelchair maneuvering space when the occupant is seated. But any floor area that can be occupied by a wheelchair is part of the circulation path where people who are walking also travel. Therefore minimum height requirements protecting people not in wheelchairs will overlap areas used by wheelchairs.

I don't know ADA requirements but the ICC/ANSI does not say anything about how high the maneuvering space needs to be except as high as the door.

A117.1 doesn’t actually specifically state how high the door maneuvering space has to be. Vertical clearance in general is addressed in A117.1 307.4 (Vertical Clearance) which would apply to the space on both sides of a door. There is an exception for 78” instead of 80” at doors for the stop and closer, I assume that applies only under the stop and closer. ADA 307.4 has the same requirements with slightly different language.

 

[mjw_accessibility]

Does that mean that if I had a 7" recess, I would only need 53" clear between the walls, like this?

View attachment 12907

Given the wall at the plan north, that would not be a forward approach. IMHO, it would need to be a side approach (hinge or latch), and the fact that it is recessed less than 8" would not matter. It does not comply

 

[mark handler]

Mark, I'm confused. Earlier in post #5 you said "measured at/from the door", which would mean we have 60" clear from face of door even as the 7" protruding wall leaves us only 53" clear from face of wall:

 

[Yikes]

View attachment 13905



View attachment 13906

Unfortunately, nothing in your post answered my question. The code illustrations only show what happens when the recess is greater than 8” deep.
There are no illustrations that show how perpendicular measurements are applied when the recess is less than 8”.
Do you measure from face of door, or face of wall?

See post #12 video, and let me know if you agree with the U.S. Access board’s interpretation.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Face of door.

 

[mark handler]

Unfortunately, nothing in your post answered my question. The code illustrations only show what happens when the recess is greater than 8” deep.
There are no illustrations that show how perpendicular measurements are applied when the recess is less than 8”.
Do you measure from face of door, or face of wall?

See post #12 video, and let me know if you agree with the U.S. Access board’s interpretation.

The Clearance measurement is per attached picture, FACE OF WALL
the 8-inch is from face of DOOR
note: the maneuvering clearance moves, with the 8-inch offset, see enlargement.
They do not say it, but they show it.

U.S. Access Board - Chapter 4: Entrances, Doors, and Gates

The U.S. Access Board is a federal agency that promotes equality for people with disabilities through leadership in accessible design and the development of accessibility guidelines and standards for the built environment, transportation, communication, medical diagnostic equipment, and...

www.access-board.gov