Which 120/240 Double Pole GFCI Circuit Breakers Will Work on a 208/120 System?

[jar546]

We've had some issues over the past few years with GFCI and AFC/GFCI combo breakers being installed for condo remodels in buildings that have a 208y/120 system. What we found was that the 120/240 rated OCPD (double pole GFCI) will not work in the 208y system. Most often, the OCPD won't even trip with the self-test button. I am starting to see spec sheets from Schneider, for example, that now clearly list a 208y as an option for their double pole breakers.

This was a big issue for a while. Does anyone have any more recent experience with this?

Specifically, during a condo remodel, the existing dishwasher/disposal circuit was originally run in conduit using a MWBC so we highly recommend they pull another neutral to eliminate this problem when they have to add an AFCI/GFCI combo. Neither will trip and I am told it is because of the 208 voltage. I think we need some more light shed on this.

 

[wwhitney]

Seems like for remodels that are reusing the existing dishwasher/disposal receptacle and circuit, there is no need to provide GFCI/AFCI protection, as that circuit is not being touched. Whereas remodels are that are moving the dishwasher/disposal receptacle, it shouldn't be a problem to rewire the branch circuit as required to provide the necessary GFCI/AFCI protection.

As to your questions, there are multiple ways to provide AFCI + GFCI protection, a dual function double pole breaker is not the only option. How does your jurisdiction interpret "readily accessible" as regards receptacles within a sink base cabinet? Possibilities are that they are all readily accessible; they are readily accessible only when located near the front of the cabinet where it is impossible to store items in front of them; or they are never readily accessible (which interpretation I disagree with). In the first two cases, GFCI protection can be provided at the receptacle, although for an MWBC, that would require two different GFCI receptacles, rather than a split-wired duplex (or for the second case, it could be done with two separate blank face GFCIs at the front of the cabinet and a single split-wired duplex at the back).

As to AFCI protection, several of the current brands no longer using any ground fault sensing in their AFCIs, so an MWBC can be supplied with two single poles AFCIs with a handle-tie.

I agree that a comprehensive list of the current breaker manufacturers, with which of their AFCI products will work as two single poles on an MWBC, and which of their AFCI and/or GFCI double pole breakers will work on 208Y/120, would be very helpful.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[jar546]

Seems like for remodels that are reusing the existing dishwasher/disposal receptacle and circuit, there is no need to provide GFCI/AFCI protection, as that circuit is not being touched. Whereas remodels are that are moving the dishwasher/disposal receptacle, it shouldn't be a problem to rewire the branch circuit as required to provide the necessary GFCI/AFCI protection.

I was looking up old information and found this. This is how thread drift starts: when a legitimate issue is started for discussion, and the response starts off taking the actual subject matter into a completely different direction with information that is not relevant to the actual issues happening in the field. In this example, there is an actual problem that we have with AFCI/GFCI double-pole breakers in 120/208 condos, where they won't even self-test.

The response starts off with why they have to replace them to begin with, if it is a remodel of an existing kitchen, which has absolutely zero relevance to the subject we are talking about. That can be a separate thread, but it has no relevance here. So folks, please try to stay in the lane the OP is trying to get information on.

 

[wwhitney]

So folks, please try to stay in the lane the OP is trying to get information on.

Really, you open up a two year old thread just to go on about thread drift?

Everything in my response was relevant to the context you provided in your OP. If you want to keep your threads very narrow, stick to the part that you care about. E.g. just "Does anyone have any current information about the availability from the various major manufacturers of double pole GFCI and dual function AFCI/GFCI breakers that work properly on 120/208 single phase (apartments)?"

Cheers, Wayne

 

[jar546]

Really, you open up a two year old thread just to go on about thread drift?

Everything in my response was relevant to the context you provided in your OP. If you want to keep your threads very narrow, stick to the part that you care about. E.g. just "Does anyone have any current information about the availability from the various major manufacturers of double pole GFCI and dual function AFCI/GFCI breakers that work properly on 120/208 single phase (apartments)?"

Cheers, Wayne

I needed that old information for something new, and just happened to see your response for the first time. Yeah, I'm whining about it. Just stick with the facts and don't create another drift. Instead, create a new thread about the subject you want to talk about.

As an update, I see that Leviton has a product that works in both 208y/120 and 120/240 systems, but it is almost $300US. Other manufacturers have two different products for the two voltages.

 

[wwhitney]

Just stick with the facts and don't create another drift.

Since your OP discussed helping the inspectee figure out how to avoid the issue ("we highly recommend they pull another neutral to eliminate this problem"), my comments about other ways for the inspectee to avoid the issue are on topic. No drift.

Also, thanks for the updated info in the last paragraph of your last post.

Cheers, Wayne