Ya. we don't need no stinking commie fire sprinklers....

[tbz]

HD,

Support Jake if you believe his proposals to change are correct, don't if you don't that is the way it is and should be.

Mark,

The weak links in your simple plan

NFPA 13D residential fire sprinkler systemMAINTENANCE:

Under normal circumstances, fire sprinkler system will require minimal maintenance, with exception of the following:

1. On a regular basis, observe the system’s water pressure on the riser gauge. If the gauge reads zero, contact a licensed fire sprinkler contractor for an inspection.

a. how many will check?

b. how many will call? It cost money that most wont spend.

2. On a yearly basis, open the system test valve until the alarm bell begins to ring; a delay of 30 to 60 seconds is normal. If the alarm fails to ring after this period, contact a licensed fire sprinkler contractor for an inspection.

a. how many home owners will do this if they don't check smokes detectors?

b. how many will spend the money?

3. Keep the fire sprinklers free of dust build-up and any other form of debris or contamination that may impede operation. Nothing should be hung or attached to the sprinkler unit that would disrupt the spray pattern. Replace any sprinkler exhibiting corrosion or damage.



a. a home owner might be afraid to dust for fear of setting it off - or

b. don't care and will hang stuff off them - or

c. replacement requires knowledge or a service call, money if they won't buy a 9-volt battery why would they buy a new head or pay for a service call?

4. DO NOT PAINT THE FIRE SPRINKLERS; PAINT CAN CLOG THE SPRINKLER AND PREVENT PROPER OPERATION.

a. going to happen, dumb we know, but will happen

5. In the event that remodeling or construction has altered the original configuration, additional sprinklers should be installed, as required, to maintain protection level.

a. okay how many people are skipping permits or don't believe small renovations in basements, unfinished attics or room renovations need permits?

Gals and guys harp all you want on how great they are, not going to change the daily facts that most people would rather drive a BMW than install a smoke detector.

I see this all the time, they see no perceived value in it for them, again those that work in fire daily see it, but the mass public see's it as over bearing and big brother spending their money for nothing.

Heck,

I will give you another simple point, people spend thousands on cars, don't get them serviced, push their tires till bald as butter, we wont even talk about getting washed.

Just because you believe it is simple to do, does not mean it will get done.

 

[permitguy]

When the water don't work in the home because of the sprinkler and it cost XYZ, the shutoff valve will turn one way and if one is not there, well it will be after that.

I'm not sure where you're coming from here. What about the presence of sprinklers would cause the water not to work, making the homeowner want to shut them off?

 

[AegisFPE]

What about the presence of sprinklers would cause the water not to work, making the homeowner want to shut them off?

I'll bite!Say in maneuvering a ladder, perhaps to cut in the edges of the ceiling while painting or to get at storage up in the attic, they knock open a head. With the water raining at about 20gpm, M. Doityerself homeowner realizes they have to shut off the water to the whole house to get it to stop. They go to the local big-box store to buy a replacement, but can only find lawn sprinklers.

So, instead they buy a 1/2-inch brass plug and then to keep from having to turn the water off to the whole house should something like that happen again, and to prevent further delay in getting to the main valve, he buys a 1/4-turn valve and splices it into the sprinkler riser...and maybe forgets to turn it back on.

 

[Min&Max]

I'm going to start supporting Jake Pauls at the code hearings on his stairway proposals. More people die of falls in homes than any other cause.

That is just plain mean-spirited!!!! LOL

 

[High Desert]

tom, I was saying that in jest.

 

[conarb]

Why didn't they work in Wells New York where those disabled people died in a new building?

 

[texasbo]

why do people spend on average $22,000.00 on a car and wont spend $10.00 on a smoke detector?

Because they can't get 7 years 0% on a smoke.

 

[steveray]

Because they can't get 7 years 0% on a smoke.

Needed that at the end of my friday!

 

[GHRoberts]

My wife buys a $17000 car every 4 or 5 years. We put about 100K of business miles on it and get a tax deduction of $50,000 over those years. The tax deduction is worth $17,500 (35% tax bracket).

I guess I get a small tax deduction for the smoke detectors in the business part of our house.

 

[hlfireinspector]

NFPA 13D

6.1.2 Where stored water is used as the sole source of supply, The minimum quantity shall equal the water demand rate times 10 minutes unless permitted by 6.1.3

6.1.3 Where stored water is used as the sole source of supply, the minimum quantity shall be permitted to equal the two-sprinkler water demand rate times 7 minutes where dwelling units meet the following criteria:

(1) one story in height

(2) Less that 2,000 square feet in area

8.1.1.2 Sprinklers that are listed with a specific discharge criteria

8.1.1.2.2 The system shall provide at least the flow required to produce a minimum discharge density of 0.05 gpm/per square foot to the design sprinklers

8.1.4 Operating pressure. The minimum operating pressure of any sprinkler shall be the higher of the minimum operating pressure specified by the listing or 7 psi.

 

[permitguy]

Say in maneuvering a ladder, perhaps to cut in the edges of the ceiling while painting or to get at storage up in the attic, they knock open a head. With the water raining at about 20gpm, M. Doityerself homeowner realizes they have to shut off the water to the whole house to get it to stop. They go to the local big-box store to buy a replacement, but can only find lawn sprinklers. So, instead they buy a 1/2-inch brass plug and then to keep from having to turn the water off to the whole house should something like that happen again, and to prevent further delay in getting to the main valve, he buys a 1/4-turn valve and splices it into the sprinkler riser...and maybe forgets to turn it back on.

Point taken, but the implication was that the presence of sprinklers caused the water not to work. In your scenario, the homeowner purposely made the sprinklers not work. If someone is adept enough (and willing to buy the parts) to splice in a valve, they can probably figure out how to replace a sprinkler head. We all know most contractors are perfectly honest and not greedy, but since sprinkler contractors are all crooked and will take every opportunity to charge another buck, they'll typically charge for a few spare heads and leave them by the riser.

I guess we should make water heaters optional, because when that TPR valve pops, some dumb homeowner will just replace it with a plug and blow himself up. It's a wonder anyone ever changes their furnace filters, mows their grass, or paints their house in your jurisdictions. Guess I'm blessed to live where I do.

 

[brudgers]

I've never argued otherwise, when they are installed in the type of building they were intended to protect.

One and two family dwellings are an occupancy not a building type.

 

[tbz]

Perm,

The implication is simply something will happen with the sprinklers effecting the water supply and at that point because of cost the home owner won't fix it. Human error or frozen pipe or other.

It doesn't matter were you live, if they can't touch it for pleasure or see it for pleasure it will have no value in their minds.......

It's a wonder anyone ever changes their furnace filters, mows their grass, or paints their house in your jurisdictions.

Talk to the furnace people and you will find that filters only get changed when the heat or air gets shut down from air flow a good portion of the time. And they only fix it because they need heat or air.

As for grass or paint, the home owner can see that, so they will do something, they can't see the sprinklers working till they need them just like the batteries in the SD's.

And as for the water heater being replaced, again something they use every day and find value.

Heck given a choice I would venture a guess if the new home owner was offered by the builder a choice between the a real nifty BBQ for the back deck or sprinklers in the house, most would choose the BBQ.

 

[incognito]

Of all the upgrades that a builder/developer could offer, sprinklers would be the last one I would want. They are of absolutely zero value and do nothing to add value to my home functionally or asthetically. If sprinklers were actually as important as some preach, insurance companies would cut their premiums by 50% and waive their deductible for any damage caused by sprinklers in a non-fire release.

And if you are really interested in saving lives, do something about the carnage on our roads. About 40,000 peple a year die in auto accidents and the underlying cause is almost always excessive speed. All we have to do is cut all speed limits by 50% nationwide and we immediately start saving lives and preventing life changing injuries. Yeah it might be inconvienent and expensive but that really doesn't matter. All that matters is that we are saving lives and preventing pain and suffering. I'm sure all you firefighter/EMTs support this since you are pulling the mangled bodies of men, women and childern from accident scenes. Just think of the immediate impact it would make. You don't have to wait decades to see a miniscule benefit in the statistics. But, of course, it will also have an immediate impact on you personally in terms of convienence and expense. You just have to keep chanting your mantra that you can't put a price on a life.

 

[forensics]

I have changed my mind ...

I thought that the consumer ignorance was the main problem concerning res sprinklers but I must conceed I was wrong ...

The dumbest statements seem to be coming form the "experts" and all one must do to prove it is read the assanine comment on this board of "code experts" SHEESH

There is so much ignorance flowing form these posts from the "nearly informed" that it is frightning

Stupid statements like ...

* Generators (where is that in 13D or P2904?)

* Wells ( don't you know the flow rate for 3.0K Factor heads is only 8GPM and only 2 heads are calculated 16GPM)

* Storage of water (16GPM x 7 minutes is only 112 gallons and the water in the well casing is considered stored)

* Cost vs Lives (How much are we spending for innefective fire departments PER LIFE SAVED)

* Cost to (the poor ole) builders (why are we the taxpayers building and equiping fire stations to subsidize Centex

and Ryland communities)

* Maintenance (The sprinklers that are sure to be used wont be CPVC they will be PEXa and they sit passively in the

home water pipe system until needed...Once again there is no maintenance and the "annual test" is done every

time water is flowed in the home

QUIT DRINKING THE NAHB KOOLAIDE

YOU GUYS ARE SMARTER THAN THIS...GET THE REAL FACTS NOT THE NAHB PROPOGANDA

 

[packsaddle]

Since we're on the subject of stupidity and ignorance, you misspelled at least 7 words in your post above.

 

[GHRoberts]

forensics ---

Perhaps you could give us a objective criteria you want to use.

I always thought economics was a reasonable criteria.

You might value lives as being worth more than $1 million, but ...

You might have an extra $5000 or so to install a sprinkler system, but those below you in the economic structure may not.

 

[fatboy]

ummmm, as I said in post #11........:beatdhrs

 

[tbz]

forensics,

I have a question for you about wells, since I have lived with well water supply all my life and never had city supply, have about 20 relatives with wells that I have worked on and have even hooked a few windmills up for pumping I will take a shot here and ask you,

1. what is the required GPM that code requires a well to pump?

2. What size tanks are normally installed?

3. What is the normal pressure range of house wells?

4. At what rate of pressure does the water system on a well decrease when one sink or toilet is opened during discharge.

Stupid statements like ...* Generators (where is that in 13D or P2904?)

* Wells ( don't you know the flow rate for 3.0K Factor heads is only 8GPM and only 2 heads are calculated 16GPM)

* Storage of water (16GPM x 7 minutes is only 112 gallons and the water in the well casing is considered stored)

Of the 4 current properties I own with wells, none have a pumping rate over 4 GPM to replenish storage of which that means in order to supply 2 heads in your notations I would need to store a minimum of 112 gallons minus 28 gallons (4 GPM * 7) or 84 gallons and then hope no one opens a line.

It's not a matter of what might be best, it's a matter of people spend thousands of dollars on crap that amuses them and next to nothing on simple safety things like smoke detectors & sprinklers.

 

[mark handler]

02/19/2010

NFPA 13D fire sprinkler systems on well water

Well systems incorporating fire sprinklers at the start of the building process are set up to effectively address this fire protection application. The following will explain how NFPA 13D systems are integrated into well systems.

Water sits in three areas in a well-fed system: in the well above the pump, refilling into the well as it is used, and in the holding tank in the home. NFPA 13D states that the refill rate can be counted on to help supply part of the demand, and therefore, the duration demand of 7 or 10 minutes can be met by the sum of these three sources. The refill rate can be determined by the person that drills the well.

Wells are set up at the inception of the home building process and a larger well pump is usually installed along with larger expansion tanks. Homes on well water most likely will need a pump to serve the domestic water supply. The cost associated with providing additional pressure to run the fire sprinkler system may simply be the difference between the regular pump the homeowner must install to obtain the necessary pressure for domestic use, and a higher flow pump, or a booster pump and tank.

Residential pump and tank manufacturers tell us that the expansion tanks are sized to pick up the difference between the well capacity and demand so they are not necessarily as large as some would believe. To meet the requirements of NFPA 13D, many installations have been done using this method, effectively and cost competitively.

According to NFPA 13D, where a pressure tank is used for the water supply those who meet the requirement of ASME Boiler and Pressure Vessel Code are acceptable, provided the authority having jurisdiction considers the air or nitrogen supply reliable.

Stand alone tank systems are similar to the pressurized tank systems in that they can be set up to provide for the difference in supply as opposed to total demand. According to manufacturers, generally for little extra cost, total demand can be covered. They say that stagnation is easily addressed during testing, and that no problems have been identified. They advise that a separate pump is required but is also for relatively low cost and highly competitive. It has the benefit of not being used for anything but the fire demand, so the system is never compromised.

Stand-by power is not required by code, but many manufacturers build their systems with battery back-up as a standard feature. They posit that frequent maintenance is not required on these systems. It consists of periodic checks that are neither difficult nor time consuming.

According to General Air Products, one of the manufacturers consulted in order to address this technical issue, they “sell systems every day to meet the varying demands of the marketplace. Every situation is not the same but we have yet to find a scenario which cannot be addressed technically or cost effectively.”

http://nfpa.typepad.com/firesprinklerinitiative/water-supplies/

 

[conarb]

The reality is that different AHJs modify the 13D requirements to meet their local condirtions:

Lack of adequate fire protection water supply is the most frequent problem in areas where no recognized water purveyor is available. On-site water storage in large quantities requiring one or more standard hydrants pressurized by a fire pump can be quite expensive. A typical installation will require 1,500 gpm (gallons per minute) at 20 psi (pounds per square inch) for 2 hours of operation, which equates to 180,000 gallons in storage, unless your project can qualify for our Isolated/Rural exception. This will be in addition to water needed for domestic, industrial or irrigation purposes. See Standard CFMO-W2 for details (click Related Links below). You may also be required to provide fire sprinklers if your project proposes structures over 3,600 square feet, is located in the Wildland Urban Interface (WUI) or if sprinklers are required by the Building Code. To see which WUI zone your rural property is in visit our Wildland Urban Interface webpage (link below) where you can view the Santa Clara County Draft WUIFA map, available in both PDF and Google Earth formats. The Primary tank holds the water necessary for domestic, irrigation, or industrial use, in addition to your fire sprinkler water supply. The Secondary tank supplies water to the Wharf Hydrant for firefighting purposes. The double tank system was devised to avoid possible contamination of the domestic water supply from the tank of the fire engine, as required by the County Plumbing Code. We require the combination of domestic and fire sprinkler supply in one tank to provide a degree of reliability for the fire sprinkler system as people are most likely to ensure that fresh water is available for other necessary uses at all times. See Standards CFMO W1 & CFMO W5 for details by clicking on related link below.¹

They were going to require three tanks on my project, but for a total of 15,000 gallons, not 180,000 gallons.

¹ http://www.sccgov.org/portal/site/fmo/faq#null

 

[packsaddle]

post deleted.

 

[forensics]

Since we're on the subject of stupidity and ignorance, you misspelled at least 7 words in your post above.

Hukked on foniks werked for me!

Point is even a dumb contry boy lik me can instal sprinklrs!

I dont need no stinkin union card

I see the typical liberal Saul Alinsky approach " If you can't discredit the concept attack the person"

 

[conarb]

Forensics:

I didn't misspell anything, I quoted from the writings of the County Fire Marshal. Just because "even a dumb contry boy lik me can instal sprinklers" in low-wage poor areas of the country like South Carolina doesn't mean they can be installed nationwide for such a ridiculously low price. That's one of the frauds, using poor area pricing as a basis for passing a nationwide mandate.